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Post-Release Matrix Reloaded Discussion
#36
Quote:

Bozz:
Quote:

Fazer:
Wow, those are some really interesting concepts bozz.

I was also wondering if Zion was destroyed. Was it mentioned in passing at the end of the movie when they were fleeing the Nebuchadnezzar?

From reading ParkersSeventh's post, I thought Zion was destroyed and maybe I missed that piece of information. They did say they found "one survivor" but I thought it was just in reference to a ship not all of Zion.

I was wondering how Neo was able to stop the sentinels? He would surely have to part machine. Agent Smith is becoming more human. Maybe it's part of the Matrix evolving? Take on the better aspects of humans?

I forgot to mention in my last post about your theory revolving Neo becoming more machine and Agent Smith becoming more human. I see this as a definet possibility. I think it has something to do with when Agent Smith tried to turn Neo into another Smith. Also, there was that long (long!) scene with Neo and the old council dude about "machines and men living together." That has to crop up again, eventually, and would explain why, even though the Oracle, her guard, and others are machines (programs) they're still fighting WITH the humans rather than against them. I just wish this idea was clarified a bit more in RELOADED because I think it's fucking fantastic. Think about it, what's the cooler idea? The fact that machines have enslaved humans and the humans are fighting back, or the idea the machines have developed this elaborate program, and certain aspects OF that program are sick of it and fighting back? Brilliant, if you think about it...

(edited because I thought I double posted but really didn't--doh!)

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#37
Can someone please explain to me who this guy is that's trying to kill Neo? Why does it look like their heads are connected?

My fave fight? Neo taking on the Village People in Merovingian's lair(he blocked the blade with his hand!!). Sweet stuff. The other's were fantastic for sure, but this one really had my attention.

The Superman producers should also take heavy notes on the flying effects done here. Pretty damn slick. Liked the pose he made above the clouds there.
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#38
Quote:

LlamaRama:
This movie is not going to fair well in the eyes of the public. I suddenly understand Time's spoiler-ific article, and the reason for Revolution's quick release.

Yeah, this film is going to be HATED by the casual fan. I understand the Bros. reasons for wanting Revolutions to be released in August as opposed to November. Not until its all said and done will this be appreciated by Joe Sixpack.
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#39
HOLY FUCKING GOD.

I needed to get that out of my system. Do I think this is the greatest movie ever? I honestly don't know. Do I think it's the greatest movie I've ever personally seen? Maybe. My head is so juiced right now, I'm having trouble putting simple thoughts together. That movie was so fucking deep, so fucking ballsy, so fucking brilliant, that I have no idea how I'm going to get to sleep tonight. I still can't believe the direction that the Wachowskis took for this. This will redefine the art of the sequel. We may not see the effects right away, but I am absolutely sure that we will eventually. This wasn't just expanding on the first movie, it was ripping it apart, spinning it back together, and then expanding beyond comprehension. Right now, I don't think I'm ready to talk about all the concept/philosophy stuff yet. I need to let that sink in for a bit.
I really loved the humanistic aspects in this movie. I fully and utterly believed in Neo's and Trinity's love, and I really felt for all the side characters (especially Link). Even the new "Mouse" was a welcome tangent. The meaty tone of the Zion world was amazing. I even found merit in the rave scene, which was the only complaint I heard among the groups that I was with. I really felt the energy of a desperate nation that refuses to embrace the disparity of their inexorably dire situation.
The special effects were superb, but we already knew that. I loved the Wachowskis take on the action this time around. In the first movie, the fights were about drama, like "Can Neo really win this?" This time around, with Neo being The One, that isn't quite as possible. Instead, the brothers went for sheer grace and beauty. I for one applaud this direction. I could watch those fights for eternity, marveling in the exquisite artistry.
The acting was top notch as well. Surprisingly. Reeves flat out amazed me. I didn't once think of him as Keanu "Whoa" Reeves. He IS the One. Also, Moss really moved me this time around. She didn't even come close to doing that in the first movie. Fishburne's presence was as powerful as ever, and seeing him hit with Neo's revelation was breathtaking. All the side characters were great as well. Their names escape me for now, but they filled their roles and then some.

Once again, I want to applaud the Wachowskis for not holding any punches, not taking any shit, and for deliviring one hell of a masterpiece.

P.S. - The Revolutions trailer. Short, yes, but could it be any sweeter? Not this side of heaven. Only the thought of repeated Reloaded viewings can blunt the pain of waiting for the finale of this truly magnificent spectacle.
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#40
Quote:

Severe Acute Guyute Syndrome:
Quote:

LlamaRama:
This movie is not going to fair well in the eyes of the public. I suddenly understand Time's spoiler-ific article, and the reason for Revolution's quick release.

Yeah, this film is going to be HATED by the casual fan. I understand the Bros. reasons for wanting Revolutions to be released in August as opposed to November. Not until its all said and done will this be appreciated by Joe Sixpack.

Considering the nature of this film, I was surprised by how many people were blown away in my theater. People that I brought along for company, thinking they would surely not love it, ended up really appreciating it. These are people that barely understood the first one, let alone embraced it. The sheer scope and magnitude of this film in undeniable, whether you can wrap your head around it or not.
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#41
Quote:

ParkersSeventh:
Quote:

Bozz:
Quote:

Fazer:
Wow, those are some really interesting concepts bozz.

I was also wondering if Zion was destroyed. Was it mentioned in passing at the end of the movie when they were fleeing the Nebuchadnezzar?

From reading ParkersSeventh's post, I thought Zion was destroyed and maybe I missed that piece of information. They did say they found "one survivor" but I thought it was just in reference to a ship not all of Zion.

I was wondering how Neo was able to stop the sentinels? He would surely have to part machine. Agent Smith is becoming more human. Maybe it's part of the Matrix evolving? Take on the better aspects of humans?

I forgot to mention in my last post about your theory revolving Neo becoming more machine and Agent Smith becoming more human. I see this as a definet possibility. I think it has something to do with when Agent Smith tried to turn Neo into another Smith. Also, there was that long (long!) scene with Neo and the old council dude about "machines and men living together." That has to crop up again, eventually, and would explain why, even though the Oracle, her guard, and others are machines (programs) they're still fighting WITH the humans rather than against them. I just wish this idea was clarified a bit more in RELOADED because I think it's fucking fantastic. Think about it, what's the cooler idea? The fact that machines have enslaved humans and the humans are fighting back, or the idea the machines have developed this elaborate program, and certain aspects OF that program are sick of it and fighting back? Brilliant, if you think about it...

(edited because I thought I double posted but really didn't--doh!)

I really enjoyed that part of the film. As has been said, it really changed everything about the man vs. machine war from the first film. It was become much more gray than that. I figured that the Oracle was a machine from the first film, as it the only way that her existence made any sense. However, an entire "race" of rogue machines? That is a cool idea, and something that I hope is explored further in Revolutions.
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#42
Yep - really enjoyed it as well. Man there's alot of shit going on in the movie. Did pretty well keeping track of all it up until the Architect scene. Need to see that again - there was so much exposition there - couldn't keep track of it all.

Neo stopping the Sentinels - initial reaction - the real world ain't so real after all.

My vote goes for Zion being wiped as well.

Need to see it again and marshall my thoughts.

Main complaint - this is truly half a movie with one of the poorest endings ever.
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#43
Quote:

Severe Acute Guyute Syndrome I figured that the Oracle was a machine from the first film, as it the only way that her existence made any sense.

I just figured (from the first film) that she was a human who had "woken up" from The Matrix and was living in Zion. The reason they had to meet her IN the Matrix was that it was convieniant, since they were far apart geographicly. Now I know that she's a program, that's a pretty cool idea, but I don't think it was the only way her existence made sense.
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#44
Quote:

ParkersSeventh:
Quote:

Severe Acute Guyute Syndrome I figured that the Oracle was a machine from the first film, as it the only way that her existence made any sense.

I just figured (from the first film) that she was a human who had "woken up" from The Matrix and was living in Zion. The reason they had to meet her IN the Matrix was that it was convieniant, since they were far apart geographicly. Now I know that she's a program, that's a pretty cool idea, but I don't think it was the only way her existence made sense.

To me it was, because how else would she have known so much about future events inside the mythology of the film?
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#45
Wow, that was some bad film. And bad film making.

I don't know if I will see a sequence as bad as the Morpheus speech/rave/sex scene this year, honestly Larry can act, but was some fucking horrid shit.

And the action, bore. It's video game/kung fu lite. A few jolting moments where I was kinda into it, like the freeway scene, but mostly I was bored with it.

When the silly french guy stood in the backgroung like a boss while his minibosses fought, I was having Castlevania flashbacks. The Smith fights? Please, will someone get hurt? Am I supposed to feel the action? Am I supposed to feel the punches, cause it felt like a cartoon.

And the philosphy shit was so heavyhanded, it felt like the W's got it from those shity Matrix and Philosphy books.

Now the big twist, I couldn't really give a shit about that because I don't care about one single character. When you hit with that, give us some emotion. Christ, the emotion/love scenes in this were as flat and cliche it really truly felt like a student film.

I mean wow, this thing was fucking bad. I had low expectations, but not this low.
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#46
Quote:

Alain:
Can someone please explain to me who this guy is that's trying to kill Neo? Why does it look like their heads are connected?

</strong>

That's the guy Agent Smith possessed early on. He's now in the "real" world at the same medical facility as Neo.
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#47
I'm not pulling any punches here. Anyone that wants to stay upbeat about this movie I suggest you skip what I have to say right now and move on.....

That movie took forever to end. I was bored out of my mind. This is nowhere near the first Matrix in terms of "fun". I didn't go in for the pseudo-philosophical stuff...I just wanted to be entertained with something new. The endless talking made this movie come to a halt too many times. And I don't mind talking in movies but the characters have nothing to say that we haven't heard already. Morpheus still talking like Spock, Neo and Trinity doing nothing until the next fight scene, blah blah blah. And the action, ugh. The action didn't justify all the talking I had to sit through. It felt so forced and pointless. The fight scenes...terrible. Every fight looks the same. The characters move stiff and slow. The punches and kicks have no impact whatsoever. It's like they're playing tag out there. And Joel Silver doesn't have to worry about anyone copying the special effects and fight scenes this time simply because THERE IS NOTHING TO COPY. The Neo vs 100 Smiths fight reminded me a lot of the fight in Blade II (Blade vs Nomack) only there weren't a 100 Nomacks all over the place. The great freeway chase? It was just like any other chase you see in an action movie...except these guys use slow motion like it's going out of style. Trinity on the bike was the only part that didn't have a "been there, done that" feel. Needless to say I feel no need to go see Matrix Reloaded again and it seriously put a downer on my anticipation for Revolutions. And if my crowd is any indication I wasn't alone in what I felt...I heard many negative grumbles when leaving the theater. The ushers warned us before the movie started that a trailer for Revolutions was after the credits and people were all hyped over it. After the movie was over I saw a lot of people leaving anyway. Whoever said the general public won't take 2nd viewings of this movie may be right.

The one redeeming factor about this night. I saw the Freddy vs. Jason trailer on my print of Reloaded and the crowd went nuts for it. It actually gave me chills
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#48
This is one of the best movies of the year and MUCH better than the first. I loved almost everything about it. I loved how seriously it took itself. It's nice in this endlessly selfconscious and ironic culture for someone to tackle big ideas without worrying about looking stupid.

The audience I was with HATED this movie. People were yelling at the screen during the Architect sequence - my favorite part of the film. I thought the freeway chase was AMAZING.

The movie was long and it felt every minute of the running time and maybe then some, but it was all worth it. The one big problem I have ever had with the mythology of the Matrix - why even allow the human batteries to have thoughts, why not lobotomize them? - seems about to be answered. I think the point of the humans is not in the energy they create but something they do or create when they leave the Matrix. Zion is important for reasons we haven't been told.
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#49
Ah, the requisite "this movie went over my head, so it fucking sucks" naysayers. Where would we be without them? I had two of these in my group of 20, and their asses were verbally kicked in the hole.
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#50
I enjoyed most of this, but the tonal shifts threw me and I will need to see it again to take it all in.

The Zion part was typical cheesy sci-fi...could've been any future movie ever. Fishburne's acting here was overdone crap.

Once they re-immersed, it became a 70's Kung Fu flick, right down to the music during the Burly Brawl. Bits of cheese here and there, but I liked it.

The final third, from Merovingian onward, I LOVED. Awesome blend of innovative action, thought-provoking philosophy from The Architect, and many mysterious things and characters that won't be fully realized until Revolutions (e.g. Persephone and that "kiss"Wink.

So on the whole, I agree with SJR. Got a Prisoner meets Enter the Dragon meets Existenz vibe from it. But I'd rank it JUST slightly less for the Zion stuff, which was hammy and dull to the point of distraction.

7.5 out of 10.
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#51
Quote:

Severe Acute Guyute Syndrome:
Quote:

ParkersSeventh:
Quote:

Severe Acute Guyute Syndrome I figured that the Oracle was a machine from the first film, as it the only way that her existence made any sense.

I just figured (from the first film) that she was a human who had "woken up" from The Matrix and was living in Zion. The reason they had to meet her IN the Matrix was that it was convieniant, since they were far apart geographicly. Now I know that she's a program, that's a pretty cool idea, but I don't think it was the only way her existence made sense.

To me it was, because how else would she have known so much about future events inside the mythology of the film?

I don't know. Maybe she was psychic or some shit? Shut up! Leave me alone!
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#52
Quote:

Mayhem:
Ah, the requisite "this movie went over my head, so it fucking sucks" naysayers. Where would we be without them? I had two of these in my group of 20, and their asses were verbally kicked in the hole.

You see right past me. I thought it could hide it inside my paragraphs, but it's true. I don't understand and therefor I hate it.

Good Job!
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#53
A LOT of people did not and never will get much of this movie. People in the audience were utterly mystified by the guy at the end, a bad, bad sign.
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#54
Frat-boys outside my theatre were: "That movie sucked balls! All the talking and the gay ass love story were ass! I loved the action scenes though! Fuck that sucked goat ass!"

And so on and so forth. I honestly found the action kind of slow, just because I knew that noone important would die/get hurt. The Neo fight scenes were simply about grace and beauty, proving he was the one. Essentially, something has to sell tickets. I loved the "talky" scenes, and wish that there had been more of them. Its like inserting Solaris into the first film on steroids.
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#55
Quote:

Devin is the Faux Elite:
A LOT of people did not and never will get much of this movie. People in the audience were utterly mystified by the guy at the end, a bad, bad sign.

True. As soon as he started breaking out the big words, I saw steam coming out of people's ears. Still, the audience I was with applauded during the predictable bits (Neo's rescue of the KeyMaker and Morpheus), and seemed generally happy.

But I could watch footage of The Architect forever. An arrogant, condescending version of God. Genius.
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#56
Oh, I understood it, it didn't go over my head.

I think I explained the reasons for my dislike, and not understanding it isn't one of them.
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#57
Quote:

Tony Ryan:
Quote:

Mayhem:
Ah, the requisite "this movie went over my head, so it fucking sucks" naysayers. Where would we be without them? I had two of these in my group of 20, and their asses were verbally kicked in the hole.

You see right past me. I thought it could hide it inside my paragraphs, but it's true. I don't understand and therefor I hate it.

Good Job!

Quote:

And the philosphy shit was so heavyhanded, it felt like the W's got it from those shity Matrix and Philosphy books.

Sounds like it.
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#58
Quote:

Tony Ryan:
Quote:

Mayhem:
Ah, the requisite "this movie went over my head, so it fucking sucks" naysayers. Where would we be without them? I had two of these in my group of 20, and their asses were verbally kicked in the hole.

You see right past me. I thought it could hide it inside my paragraphs, but it's true. I don't understand and therefor I hate it.

Good Job!

Lets not start attacking each other here. It's a very difficult film. I DID like it (to a degree) and I can't say that I "got" everything about it. One of the faults of the movie is that it doesn't take the time to explain it's ideas. A film SHOULDN'T take repeated viewings to enjoy. You can enjoy a film MORE after seeing it, but it shouldn't be required.

Tony is an intelligent guy and he gives good reasons not to like the movie. Don't dig someone else for having an opinion, dig someone who doesn't have one, or has one without a good reason.
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#59
I understood the philosphy, it just didn't work for me. The French dude being the prime example of why I didn't. The talk came out of nowhere and seemed to comment on the surrondings instead of pushing it forward. Sort of like if I watched Harold and Maude with some commentary from a guy explaining the philosphy inside it.

I felt it took me out of the film and was, yes, too heavy handed for the film it was.
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#60
Or an arrogant, condescending Demiurge. More gnostic thought from the Bros W! And more fodder for my Philosophizes thread...
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#61
Quote:

Devin is the Faux Elite:
A LOT of people did not and never will get much of this movie. People in the audience were utterly mystified by the guy at the end, a bad, bad sign.

Bad sign for box office, but not for the world of cinema. I really think that people will realize how revolutionary this take on a sequel is, eventually, and someday down the road the Wachowskis will get the respect they deserve.
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#62
I give them credit for that. It's one of the most expansive and ambitious sequels I've ever seen.
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#63
As to the point of Zion being destroyed. It was not. The plan was to send the fleet to a point in the tunnels that the drilling machines were sure to intersect. There they were to stage a counter-attack. But before they began the attack an EMP went off and took out 5 ships (not that they only had 5 ships in the attack force). Then the machines broke through and wiped out the remaining forces. After which they resumed drilling for Zion. Then the ship that rescued Neo and company went back to look for survivors and found only one.

That's why Neo says they have 24 hours until Zion is destroyed. Why would he say that if it was already destroyed?
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#64
And some say they lay claim to the bloodline of Christ.
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#65
Happened to go to the theatre tonight because my brother was around. Didn't expect Matrix to have a 10pm show time. Here I thought we'd be seeing X-Men 2 again.

Like many, I'll have to see Revolutions again to understand it specifically. Or to decide if I should bother. I'm not sure if there it is really so complicated, the philosophy, or if there is a lot of muddled redundancy.

But I definitely really liked the movie overall. The one thing I would prefer is if there was less of Zion in the beginning and more fleshing out of the plan to shut off the power, etc., at the end. In other words, more time in the matrix. My least favorite aspects of the first Matrix happened when the characters were on the ship and out of the system. This one concentrated much of its plot out of the system. While scenes where Neo is crowded by people worshipping him and where Morpheus speaks before the rave are cool, I wished that part of the movie had been leaner.

Past the rave scene, where I think the movie really started for me, I was very much into the film. The film began to show a pulse.

I liked the French dude. I don’t know if he was supposed to be incoherent, but he was cool in a funny way. Reminded me of a lot of smart people I know who enthusiastically get wrapped up and lost in their own obscure logic. Or whose logic gets so tightly spun in their minds that it becomes nearly incommunicable. I felt almost high after futile efforts of following everything everyone was saying. Definite second view required for me on that.

But I wouldn’t waste my time if I didn’t have love for the movie otherwise, which I certainly do. This movie has layers to it, that’s for sure.
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#66
Quote:

MooMoo:
I HAVE ANSWERS, ITS CALLED BOOKS

and OMG DARE I SAY IT? RESEARCH

Remember the french guy? Start there, here you go children:

<a href="http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/merovingian-twyman.htm" target="_blank">Merovingian</a>

Hokkd on Foniks uuorks 4 me

How very condecending of you.

I know all about Merovinigian and Percephone and ALL of that, but that's beside the point.

The answers SHOULD be IN the world of the film (or films if it's a series). The second the film makers insist that the viewers need to research other areas in order to understand or draw meaning is the second it becomes an unsucessful film. This is the same reason DONNIE DARKO doesn't work that well for me.

I'm not saying that the film can't have interpetations, that's different. But to say you have to understand Greek Mythology, the Bible and Karl Marx to understand the MATRIX RELOADED is too much to ask from any viewer, no matter how many message boards he or she plagues.
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#67
I will now register my all-important thoughts which I know you all have been dying to hear.

For the most part, I loved it. My three big qualms with the film:

- I thought the philosophy wasn't well-integrated enough. I have no problem with philosophy in the film, but I do have a problem with the execution. I felt that most of the conversations which discussed "choice" put us in Waking Life territory, and that's territory you don't want to be in.

- I thought the first few fights felt somewhat forced. Not that I didn't enjoy them, but the fight in the teahouse and even the burly brawl seemed to have little motivation. In terms of action-sequences, I didn't really get into the film until the fight with Neo vs. the Merovingian's (I know I'm spelling that wrong) henchmen.

- The ending didn't have enough punch for me. The fact that it was Bane/Agent Smith just didn't provide the punch I was expecting at the end.

Other than that, however, I thought it was fantastic.

8.8 out of 10
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#68
I loved the vibe that I got from the Merovingian. This is a guy that has been around longer than you can imagine, who knows more than you can decipher, and he's revelling in it.
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#69
Goldberg, I feel like the movie was a philosophical think piece with well integrated fights. A Kung Fu Waking Life, if you will.
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#70
And ParkersSeventh, I think you couldn't be any more wrong. I want more movies that force me to bring everything I know into the theater and then send me out into the real world to fill in the gaps.
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