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Post-Release Matrix Reloaded Discussion
Quote:

AgentOrange:
I must admit to being a touch intrigued as to why the Brothers have decided to tread a path down such a blatantly religious route though, transforming Neo into some kind of contemporary Messiah.

For a start, Neo doesn’t appear to fit the ‘Messiah profile’ at all:

1. Messiahs preach a message – Neo seemingly has none.
2. Messiahs are generally proactive, whereas Neo is the very antithesis of the word. Where others lead, Neo generally follows.
3. Messiahs are invariably great orators and persuaders, confident in their own abilities. Neo borders upon the withdrawn and taciturn – he is positively apologetic at times (Morpheus is better suited to this task in all honesty).
4. Messiahs deal in the hereafter and eternal, Neo operates inside the now and the transitory.
5. Messiahs are portrayed as ‘whole’ human beings, purveyors of great wisdom, and repositories of infinite amounts of human study. Neo on the other hand, whilst commanding near God-like power, appears to suffer at the hands of inchoate personality: his outlook is singularly child-like at times.

Without doubt it’s going to be interesting to see how far the Wachowskis are capable of pushing this Judean/Christian angle in Revolutions. After all, when the time came for the bottom line in ‘real life’ - Jesus (subversive, dangerous interloper, a threat to the anodyne status quo) was ultimately rejected by the people in favour of Barabas (familiar, and in relative terms - safe); much in the same way that the humans inside the Matrix rejected ‘Heaven’ (the Architect’s V 1.0) for something a touch less virtuous (why fight for something you’ve already abandoned?).

A real risk for the Brothers to be sure IMO; but then again – give me a risk-taker any day. <grin>

Who says a messiah has to fit this profile? Why couldn't he be like Neo, only to have his story retold years later? Only when it is retold years later, the storytellers change him to be more proactive. Just because the real Neo doesn't fit your Messiah stereotype doesn't mean that the legend version of Neo won't. Stories and history get distorted through time and retelling of the story.
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Quote:

Beer Die:
Who says a messiah has to fit this profile? Why couldn't he be like Neo, only to have his story retold years later? Only when it is retold years later, the storytellers change him to be more proactive. Just because the real Neo doesn't fit your Messiah stereotype doesn't mean that the legend version of Neo won't. Stories and history get distorted through time and retelling of the story.

I agree. Do you really think everything in the bible is exactly as it happened? Remember the stories were written by man.
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Quote:

Beer Die:
Who says a messiah has to fit this profile? Why couldn't he be like Neo, only to have his story retold years later? Only when it is retold years later, the storytellers change him to be more proactive. Just because the real Neo doesn't fit your Messiah stereotype doesn't mean that the legend version of Neo won't. Stories and history get distorted through time and retelling of the story.

Of course they do, and it is indeed difficult to create any accurate profile template for such revolutionary and radical individuals. However, it is possible to compare Neo to more contemporary (albeit a touch less 'God-like') ‘Messiahs’ who are living, or have lived, in recent times.

Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Malcolm X, Nelson Mandela are just a few who share a range of ‘Messiah attributes’; but they appear to have little in common with Thomas A. Anderson.

Morpheus on the other hand…
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Quote:

AgentOrange
[QBOf course they do, and it is indeed difficult to create any accurate profile template for such revolutionary and radical individuals. However, it is possible to compare Neo to more contemporary (albeit a touch less 'God-like') ‘Messiahs’ who are living, or have lived, in recent times.

Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Malcolm X, Nelson Mandela are just a few who share a range of ‘Messiah attributes’; but they appear to have little in common with Thomas A. Anderson.

Morpheus on the other hand…[/QB]

And all of those guys have had their reputations get larger than life after they died(excluding the still living Mandela). King and Gandhi always struck me as reluctant leaders. The public around them made put them on stage, they never asked to be there. Kind of like Neo, he is just doing what he believes in. It is the public that makes him a Messiah-like figure. To me he fits the profile of King and Gandhi, only instead of talking about right and wrong, Neo beats the shit out of programs.
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Hmm... Not so sure I'd say Reloaded is any closer to Christian theology than it is to any of the other philosophies it loosely references.

The reincarnation stuff lends a lot of credence to the Buddhist model, and the evil architect in charge of it all lends a lot of credence to the gnostic model (which can be loosely Christian, but the messiah doesn't function in quite the same way). Not to mention all the ancient Greek stuff, the postmodernist stuff, and the Alice in Wonderland stuff.

I think the Wachowskis are intentionally including all this information so that multiple meanings can be discerned from their movies. Upon reflection, I now see how this could be a problem for those who would prefer to just appreciate the Matrix Reloaded as a plot-driven science fiction movie. The first movie could be read either way. The balance achieved in the Matrix is slightly ignored (but by no means discarded) in Reloaded in the interest of fleshing out the multiple thematic points. I like this, but I can see why others might not.
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Quote:

Beer Die:
And all of those guys have had their reputations get larger than life after they died(excluding the still living Mandela). King and Gandhi always struck me as reluctant leaders. The public around them made put them on stage, they never asked to be there. Kind of like Neo, he is just doing what he believes in. It is the public that makes him a Messiah-like figure. To me he fits the profile of King and Gandhi, only instead of talking about right and wrong, Neo beats the shit out of programs.

An interesting contradiction, wouldn't you agree?
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Quote:

AgentOrange:
Quote:

Beer Die:
And all of those guys have had their reputations get larger than life after they died(excluding the still living Mandela). King and Gandhi always struck me as reluctant leaders. The public around them made put them on stage, they never asked to be there. Kind of like Neo, he is just doing what he believes in. It is the public that makes him a Messiah-like figure. To me he fits the profile of King and Gandhi, only instead of talking about right and wrong, Neo beats the shit out of programs.

An interesting contradiction, wouldn't you agree?

If you mean the fact that MLK and Gandhi fought with words while Neo fights with fists, maybe. But, Neo actually is fighting with his mind, he just doesn't do it with any intelligence. King and Gandhi fought their stuggles through their words. If they were hooked into the matrix, I would imagine them to have been quite similar to Neo. You can't give an agent bent on subjugating you a moving speech on why violence is bad. You simply find the solution that you feel works best and go with it. For MLK and Gandhi it was passivism, for Neo it is Kung Fu and Superman. On the surface it is quite a contrast, but to me it is only skin deep.

Plus, in the real world Neo is quite a passive guy, horny but passive. MLK and Gandhi were passivists. Similarity 1. Neo shows people the truth, MLK and Gandhi told people the truth. Similarity 2. Neo was killed by those who did not like his actions, MLK and Gandhi were killed by those who didn't like their words. Similarity 3.

Maybe they are more similar than you think. Or maybe I am a rambling drunk who has played a few too many games of Beer Die. Regardless, this is a fun discourse.
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Has anyone posted this yet?

<a href="http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_cmp/rl_neil_g.html" target="_blank">http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_cmp/rl_neil_g.html</a>
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Hey guys, first time post after a lot of lurking so here goes.

Regarding Neo maybe being a program or a machine- if that is the case then the brothers have already dropped a massive clue in the first film(assuming they had everything laid out at that stage)that I don't think any body has pointed out yet. It's only one line but that's never seemed to stop rabid specualtion before:

Tank is downloading fighting skills into Neo while Morpheus looks on.

MORPHEUS
How's he doing?

TANK
Ten hours straight. He's a machine.

Now either that's nothing or it's a genius little hint. Either way I can't wait to find out.
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I can't buy the idea that Neo is literally a machine. What I get from the Architect's speech is that he's human, but somehow contains a program within him, due to some "process" (Johnny who?):

The Architect - ... You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human.

Even ignoring that, it doesn't make sense to me to have Neo be a machine. If that were the case, what would be the point in him not knowing his function? What would be the point of making him feel love for humans, or a specific human? It only makes sense if Neo is a human. His role as the One is then another prison, like the Matrix -- a very individual prison.

The Architect's speech also makes it seem pretty clear to me that Zion is in the real world:

The Architect - [He describes Neo having to rejoin the Source, etc., etc.] Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Everyone connected to the Matrix will be killed, AND everyone in Zion will be terminated. Separate things.

Random side note: I keep waiting for a character named "The Zero" to show up in these films.
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Quote:

jasperjones:


MORPHEUS
How's he doing?

TANK
Ten hours straight. He's a machine.

Yeah, thats been discussed a couple times before in this very thread. It certainly would be a cute little clue drop if it were in fact true. Welcome, by the way!
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Quote:

Saucy:

Even ignoring that, it doesn't make sense to me to have Neo be a machine. If that were the case, what would be the point in him not knowing his function? What would be the point of making him feel love for humans, or a specific human? It only makes sense if Neo is a human. His role as the One is then another prison, like the Matrix -- a very individual prison.

My take is this: The point of Neo as a program is to eventually through an iterative process feel love. By having a program understand and feel love, the architect would be able to better the Matrix so that humans would accept it more willingly. For this to work, however, Neo must think that he is human. Hence the entire setup.

Quote:


The Architect's speech also makes it seem pretty clear to me that Zion is in the real world:

The Architect - [He describes Neo having to rejoin the Source, etc., etc.] Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Everyone connected to the Matrix will be killed, AND everyone in Zion will be terminated. Separate things.

Again, Neo must be "tricked" into thinking that everything we're being told is true (Zion in the real world, etc). Otherwise it doesn't work. Neo cannot be cognisent (sp!) of the fact that Zion is still in some layer of the Matrix, otherwise he could learn to control it (like he seems to be able to at the end of Reloaded) and the goal of improving the Matrix would never be accomplished.
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Quote:

Carter DaveB-eats the Devil:
Hmm... Not so sure I'd say Reloaded is any closer to Christian theology than it is to any of the other philosophies it loosely references.

The reincarnation stuff lends a lot of credence to the Buddhist model, and the evil architect in charge of it all lends a lot of credence to the gnostic model (which can be loosely Christian, but the messiah doesn't function in quite the same way). Not to mention all the ancient Greek stuff, the postmodernist stuff, and the Alice in Wonderland stuff.

I think the Wachowskis are intentionally including all this information so that multiple meanings can be discerned from their movies. Upon reflection, I now see how this could be a problem for those who would prefer to just appreciate the Matrix Reloaded as a plot-driven science fiction movie. The first movie could be read either way. The balance achieved in the Matrix is slightly ignored (but by no means discarded) in Reloaded in the interest of fleshing out the multiple thematic points. I like this, but I can see why others might not.

Well said. That's what I love about this film. I like a film that challenges me and my thinking.

I enjoy the way it resists easy thematic interpretation.

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Quote:

CTDeLude:
Has anyone posted this yet?

<a href="http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_cmp/rl_neil_g.html" target="_blank">http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_cmp/rl_neil_g.html</a>

CT- Love the story. Thank you for pointing it out!
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<a href="http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com" target="_blank">http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com</a>

CHeck out the Philosophy section:
"These pages are dedicated to exploring some of the many philosophical ideas that arise in both the original film and the sequels. In the upcoming months we will be continually expanding this section, offering essays from some of the brightest minds in philosophy and cognitive science......you will not find anyone here claiming to offer the definitive analysis of the film, its symbols, message, etc. What you will find instead are essays that both elucidate the philosophical problems raised by the film and explore possible avenues for solving these problems. Some of these essays are more pedagogical in nature – instructing the reader in the various ways in which The Matrix raises questions that have been tackled throughout history by prominent philosophers. Other contributors use the film as a springboard for discussing their own original philosophical views. As you will see, the authors don't always agree with each other regarding how best to interpret the film. However, all of the essays share the aim of giving the reader a sense of how this remarkable film offers more than the standard Hollywood fare. In other words, their common goal is to help show you just "how deep the rabbit-hole goes."

Badass. Go, Wachowskis go!
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Out of fuzzy-headed, alcohol-induced interest: is Knowles taking the p*** with that animation, or have the Warner Brothers promotions department gone absolutely stark raving mad?
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Wow. I saw it tonight for the first time. (I know I know.) And I have to say my head is still spinning. I really liked it. I don't know if I could give it any numerical rating that would be meaningful. It is a movie quite unlike any I have seen lately. An action movie that not only expected but demanded that you think. Gonna sleep on this.
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Quote:

Scott Roche:
Wow. I saw it tonight for the first time. (I know I know.) And I have to say my head is still spinning. I really liked it. I don't know if I could give it any numerical rating that would be meaningful. It is a movie quite unlike any I have seen lately. An action movie that not only expected but demanded that you think. Gonna sleep on this.

Welcome...to the desert...of the real - Morpheus

Glad you liked it. There's tons of discussion here and on the matrix fan site matrixcommunity.org. Lots of ideas!!! I'm still thinking about it, and its been weeks since i saw the flick [i watched it 3 times!].
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Has anyone seen Reloaded on IMAX yet. It opened in IMAX theaters yesterday. Since the weather is so awful here today, I may make the trek up to see it at the Mall of GA this afternoon.
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Quote:

möovyphreak:
Has anyone seen Reloaded on IMAX yet. It opened in IMAX theaters yesterday. Since the weather is so awful here today, I may make the trek up to see it at the Mall of GA this afternoon.

Not yet, but plan on it. Nearest IMAX is about an hour drive from me, but it will be well worth it. Gonna try to go one day next week.
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I'm curious as to how much better it is in the IMAX.
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just caught the imax screening yesterady.. i resisted the urge to see it on normal screens, so it was my first viewing.

i cannot begin to convey how disappointed i was. the movie lacked all cohesiveness.. it was like an effects company demo-reel.. all style and flash and hardly any connecting threads.. skits and clips strung together in teh hope that theyd homogenize. no pacing , no build up, no ssupense, no climax. just a machine gun assault of a series of pseudo climaxes. there was no "movie" there at all.

ill grant the car chase scene was phenomenally brilliant.. abd there were short (very short) flashes of brilliance scattered here and there.

the directors may have a few tricks up their sleeves as far as sfx go.. but as storytellers? they dropped teh ball big time.
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With all of this messiah talk, I thought I'd chime in:

While there are several parallels to the Passion in these films, I think the Wachowskis are using these parallels to illustrate that a man can be his own savior, he can break his own bonds.

Remember Neo in the hallway, rising up after being killed. It's a Christ parallel, but it I think it may also be foreshadowing. Neo gets up and gives Smith a big "fuck you." Possibly, mankind will get up and give the machines a big "fuck you," after a time of trial, of course.
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Shit shit shit shit SHIT. I have just been informed that due to complications, my IMAX theater will not be getting Reloaded. What the fuck? I'm in fucking Pittsburgh, how the hell does a major city like this lose out to compli-fucking-cations?
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Highly highly highly Hiiiiiiiiiiiighly recommend to see this in Imax. Unbelieveable.

Course this is my first time in a Imax.. But just wow. Unbelieveabley clear projection, amazing sound. And Reloaded on that screen will just do dirty things to you.
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Emotional Indulgence [Speculation]

In the trailers for the Matrix: Revolutions, we catch a glimpse of Club Hell, and of guys wearing S&M outfits. Based on everything we've seen with the Merovingian toying with humans, and with Persephone getting her kicks from human emotions, I'm thinking that's what Club Hell is...its where the programs recklessly indulge in the pleasures of human emotion.

Programs by themselves cannot experience emotions or feelings. Why would they need to? Perhaps they saw that it would perfect their nature as sentient beings to possess this thing we call human emotion or feeling. To possess it, they use us, the human beings in the matrix. Upon gaining possession of this thing called human emotion, they get caught up in the ecstasy of it, and indulge in it. Like drugs...machine marijuana, so to speak. They let their actions be dictated by it [emotion]--as machines, they follow rules without question, without choice. With emotion as their "rule" they turn reckless, ignorant of the effect of their actions upon the world...

This is something that is unique to us humans. We are capable of controlling our emotions. We've struggled with it for millenia...not always successfully, but we are familiar to it. Emotion has led to the downfall of many an empire, the seduction and corruption of kings. And now, in the world of the matrix, the machines would like to have it. To make themselves more perfect, more real, maybe, in a weird way, more human....
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Carolignian -- interesting observations there
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Quote:

In Tyler we Trust:
Highly highly highly Hiiiiiiiiiiiighly recommend to see this in Imax. Unbelieveable.

Course this is my first time in a Imax.. But just wow. Unbelieveabley clear projection, amazing sound. And Reloaded on that screen will just do dirty things to you.

Thanks for making the loss a little more painful. Damn, this really kills me. I've been looking forward to this all summer and now it's gone just because some management dickheads dropped the ball. I ventured into what actually happened, and they told me they couldn't decide if they wanted to show an R rated movie there, and by the time they decided they wanted it, it was too damn late. God, it sucks to be me.
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This is a cool thread, shame I wasnt around to participate. I agree alot with mastronikolas's views in this thread, and for people who had trouble believing in Neo's 'powers' in the real world, its quite a simple explanation. How do you think the ex-coppertops 'hack into the matrix'? Do they literally plug in, or do they 'broadcast'? They're more or less walking, talking antennas, and as Diva mentioned somewhere above, Neo touched the source which altered his consciousness, he has a close connection to it from Reloaded onwards, and can feel the machines and thus control them. Here's a BBC link about a recent story of a man with a chip in his brain who is able to control things around him: BBC link.

What I believe happens to him is; when he first uses his new ability, his mind connects to the source again which is in Machine City, once he has taken out the sentinels, a part of his consciousness attempts to rush back to his mind but gets stuck in Mobil Ave midway, and to make it easier to understand, a computer analogy: The Matix is a computer's harddrive, Movil Ave is an exterior drive, Machine City is a different computer (with a cable running through the exterior drive to the other computer), and the real world is...well, the real world.

*wonder if that made any sense*

edit: My weird analogy also explains Neo's vision of seeing the three cables, because theoretically, he's already seen them.
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2 years later and I still think it's not as good as the first but much better than "Revolutions." But calling that ending a cliffhanger was a bit of a joke.
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Trolls are pathetic.

[insert predictable trollish reply to this post]
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Moltisanti, I agree its not a great cliffhanger, if the film faded out just as the Hammer appeared then it would have been. Probably. Its hard to get away with cliffhangers in big films like this, I think the studio wouldnt take a risk on ending a film so abruptly anyway. Look at the shitty way Kill Bill 1 ended, you'd think a great cliffhanger would have been ending the film with Uma in the coffin, that would have been one of the best cliffhangers ever in my opinion.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by cognizant

Look at the shitty way Kill Bill 1 ended, you'd think a great cliffhanger would have been ending the film with Uma in the coffin, that would have been one of the best cliffhangers ever in my opinion.

I actually liked the cliffhanger in KILL BILL V.1. When that movie ended I immediately wanted to see the next chapter. But there were 2 things that got a lot of hype before MATRIX RELOADED came out. The chase scene and the cliffhanger. I though the chase scene was good, but topped twice that same summer by TERMINATOR 3 and BAD BOYS 2. One of the problems with the cliffhanger is that after the credits rolled on RELOADED they showed the trailer for REVOLUTIONS, which sort of ended the idea of there being any threat at the end of RELOADED.
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