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Post Release The Matrix Revolutions discussion (SPOILERS)
#36
Quote:

Originally posted by mastronikolas is not a spoon
How could it be a Prophecy when it's not a real prophecy? The prophecy was a sham and the ones who devised it never thought it could come true. They just wanted the One driven to the Source and reload the system. There was never a higher power that had determined this course of action.

Only the Oracle saw the potential of the One being actually capable of bringing an end to the war. But she could not foresee if this would actually happen. She says so herself in more than one instance. It was a gamble. My guess is that she tried the same thing with the previous five Ones and failed.

Neo manages to break the cycle and bring an end to the war because he starts thinking for himself. He stops believing in fate and starts making his own choices.



But the Matrix DID reload just as they said it would. Once Smith possessed The Oracle he saw visions of it just as she did. They keep saying they didn't know the outcome, but only real variable was SMITH, not Neo.

Quote:

The Architect not only didn't see this coming, but he completely disregarded the possiblity. He was ready to sacrifice a crop of humans and build a new Matrix, rather than accept anything outside the variables of his limited system. The Architect didn't believe in choice and therefore didn't believe in change, because without the former, there can't be the latter.

No, The Architect can't see EVERYTHING coming because why then would he construct a flawed Matrix that needs rebooting and is subject to anomalies in the first place? Of course.

But how he could he not know the outcome. He knew Smith was a spreading anomaly that could not be stopped. So was Neo. They had to cancel each other out for the Matrix to reload, and that was the only possible conclusion.
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#37
Quote:

Originally posted by Phil Connors

MAJOR SPOILERS
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Trinity dying was shite. I'm sorry, but it was completely unnecessary

There is now no point to her being resurrected in Reloaded. She didn't do anything in Revolutions


Why not kill her if she served no purpose. Her death was sad and sad is how the Matrix Brothers want you to feel.
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#38
Quote:

Originally posted by Egg
I'm curious now if the those who are still in the Matrix have made a conscious decision to do so. I know those who want to leave can do so, but is everyone in the Matrix now aware that they're living in a virtual reality? Or is freedom from the Matrix only gratned to those who figure it out on their own? Maybe the machines posted a sign up sheet for reality. I don't know.

Yet another mystery. You could only "want to leave" if you know The Matrix is fake in the first place, and you could only know that from having already been freed. And certainly they had no intention of re-enslaving the people of Zion, only their extinction.

So The Architect's offer/promise/whatever is devoid of value.

All he said was " I'll refrain from snuffing your pitiful lives out if you stop bothering me. I still win and remain in control, now fuck off."
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#39
Quote:

Originally posted by Fu Mikechu
Why not kill her if she served no purpose. Her death was sad and sad is how the Matrix Brothers want you to feel.

Her death was LOOOOOOOOOONG. She had time to read Keanu the unabridged version of The Stand before finally signing off.
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#40
Quote:

Originally posted by Micah Robinson
Yet another mystery. You could only "want to leave" if you know The Matrix is fake in the first place, and you could only know that from having already been freed. And certainly they had no intention of re-enslaving the people of Zion, only their extinction.

So The Architect's offer/promise/whatever is devoid of value.

All he said was " I'll refrain from snuffing your pitiful lives out if you stop bothering me. I still win and remain in control, now fuck off."


And now that the machines have agreed to leave Zion alone, will Zion stop goofing off in the Matrix? I thought that "freeing minds" was their national pastime. Is Zion's new attitude "leave the rest behind, time for a cave rave"?
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#41
Quote:

Originally posted by Fu Mikechu
Why not kill her if she served no purpose. Her death was sad and sad is how the Matrix Brothers want you to feel.

Sorry to say this chief, but that is a truly, deeply lame way to look at things. A pivotal, central character from the trilogy and you're happy with 'Why not kill her if she had no purpose'? You clearly expect less from movies than I do. Different folks, different strokes and all that, I guess.
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#42
Never mind that Zion is now a flaming heap of rubble. It'll take Zion two rave-years just to climb the hell out of their holes.

A couple of things:

First, I liked it along the NN lines. I thought it fit in with the second one. I disagree with Micah that it nullifies Reloaded, but I can understand where he's coming from. It does allow some things to fall by the wayside (Persy, Merv, Morpheus) but I also think there are some things that will take a while to figure out, which I enjoy.

Second, I can't help but think that there is more to the end than let on. The whole thing with the Oracle saying that we may 'see him again someday' about Neo. It led me to believe that Neo is something the rogue programs drag out everytime the machines get a bit full of themselves. So that was a little weird.

Where I think the Wach brothers fall short is in their heartfelt and intimate moments. When a race of people is in danger, they pull it off pretty well. The whole Last Stand of Zion angle went off, I felt afraid for them, all of that nonsense. But where they stumble are the scenes between two people. Linc and Zee in the very end, for example. Obviously, the best/worst example of this is the whole Neo/Trinity scene, which took a little longer than the Apollo missions. It's the things that Equilibrium got right that made Revolutions echo a bit hollow for me, but that's a small complaint in the broad scope of things.

And finally, did Neo die in the end? I'm still mulling this over. (Standard Hollywood practice: Can't kill the female lead unless the male lead bites it eventually. See Gladiator for details)
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#43
Neo's fate remains ambiguous: The brothers have followed the example of Greek myths and had Neo undergo an apotheosis. In tales, such as Oedipus, the main character is literally taken by the gods, not to be heard again. There are definitely echoes of this in the way the machines collect his body and disappear to who knows where. And as far as the Matrix is concerned, the machines are the gods. I'm sure that I'm not the only one that remembered Clash of the Titans during the meeting of the Oracle and the Architect.

One of the following things happened:

a) Neo died and the ORacle refers to the next One.
b) Neo died but a part of his conscience remains within the Matrix, either as a distinct entity or as part of the source code.
c) Neo was taken back to the power plant and reinserted in the Matrix.
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#44
Hmm... Haven't seen it yet and I'm trying not to read the posts here yet until tomorrow night, but there's something just caught my eye and made me curious.

I picked up the Revolutions soundtrack. The translation for Neodammerung is in the booklet and I know it's been here on the site bfore too. I also know they always said the three movies are about Birth, Life, and Death. Here's the last three lines from Neodammerung:

From delusion lead me to Truth.
From darkness lead me to Light
From death lead me to immortality.

Interesting. Almost like there's one line for each of the three films. The last one of course is the one I find most interesting.

Any comments?
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#45
My take on what the trilogy was about...


...On one level, it's about choice, taking your life in your own hands and not eltting yourself on the hands of "fate" or others.

But I also believe that it is a conflict between Order (as represented by the Architect) and Chaos (as represented by the Oracle). At the beginning of the series, Order prevails; the universe is one balanced equation. But Chaos is inevitable, hence the emergence of the Anomaly: Neo. While the dominant faction of the Architect has tried to control the anomaly and reinstate balance, the problem is that an ordered system is ultimately a stagnant system, there is no change. And such a system is ultimately vulnerable, because Chaos cannot be controlled, it evolves and will sooner or later find a way to attack: Enter Smith.
The only way to ensure the survival of the system and its evolution is to embrace Chaos. Perhaps the movie should be called the Matrix Evolution, but that would be too obvious, wouldn’t it?

What about that rebel ship being destroyed in the end of Reloaded? It couldn’t have been an accident, right? Morpheus said that there are no accidents!

But think why Morpheus says that. The Order-loving machines, through the Prophecy (another system of control) have indoctrinated him. He believes there are no accidents because the machines believe that there are no accidents.
But the machines are wrong. This fortuitous chance incident, which sets in motion the events that prevent Neo from reloading the system (reinstating order), is Chaos at work. In simple words, it was an accident.
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#46
If you'll forgive going off-topic for a moment, a question about Joey Pants from the first movie... Who plugged Cypher in so he could meet with Smith? Who was monitoring the screens when Cypher was eating steak and being a turncoat?
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#47
Thanks for the pass Nick. I have included an 88x31 link button to Chud.com on my movie review section at RawConfusion.com.

Anything I would say would be redundant at this point. You could make anything possible with your interpretation of the movie you could also void out other scenarios that chudsters have presented.

I enjoyed the action, loathed the dialogue.

I give it 2 out of 5 stars. Agent Smith was a saving grace!
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#48
I just have to ask:

How exactly is it that the computer programs in this movie have "second sight," anyway? And if it's just impressive, quantum-mechanical code-writing, will the Architect burn me a copy on CD?
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#49
things i did not like....

the slowmotion hitting smith in the head
the lack of fight sequences
the unanswered questions

things i loved....
battle of zion/return to zion chase
smith at the house of the oracle

questions unanswered...
they seemed to not even touch on SOOOOO many little things
what the fuck is the year anyways

1 - HOW did Neo accomplish being between two worlds
2 - How is it he sees the way he does when he is blind
3 - did he die at the end and what about the others knowing his fate - outside of them knowing he stopped the war
4 - the point of the child
5 - how did smith imprint on the REAL Bane - was it like a hypnotic suggestion or something of this sort
6 - how will everyone else be reawakened - all at once or one at a time and will others return back into the matrix for the hell of it
7 - will they find anything to change the sky back?
8 - was machine city in 0-1

lastly and most importantly
9 - if the machines created the whole thing to keep people in there so they had power - why would they release everyone - would that not make the machines be without power? what will their power be now?
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#50
Quote:

Originally posted by Phil Connors
A pivotal, central character from the trilogy and you're happy with 'Why not kill her if she had no purpose'? You clearly expect less from movies than I do.

OB1 is "a pivotal, central character from (a) trilogy" and he was killed off in the first film.

What I expect from movies is for the writers to exhaust the characters. Too many movies out there where characters aren't completely used up. It's becoming like television.
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#51
So I'm assuming that in not addressing Persephones Kiss, the true identity of the Merovingian, et. al. that they also did not delve into the identity of the guy being led away in the restaurant in Reloaded?
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#52
Actually, they do address that.
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#53
One funny thing related to the critical reception of the film is how much sci-fi invokes a gag reflex on the critics and some members of the audience.

Most negative reviews complain that the Battle of Zion is too long and a video game. Most of those people loved the battle of Helm's Deep. The real difference is that one was medieval warfare, while the other mechas vs. robots.
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#54
hate to say this but this site continues to show it's "fanboy" face by throwing the starwars phrase into the Matrix review

but if this site turns in to AiCN.com i will shoot you all

but i still think this site is great

edit--changed "fanyboy" to "fanboy"
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#55
Quote:

Originally posted by AlgertMan
hate to say this but this site continues to show it's "fanyboy" face

Homophobe.
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#56
Absolute perfection.

Neo's viking funeral was beautiful.
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#57
Matrix Revolutions Countdown.....T-minus 4 hours 30 minutes.
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#58
Basically, the film was bad, not awful, but bad. It had great fx and some of the action was good, but thats about it. The acting was average at best. Reeves acting stunk for the most part, especially during Trinity's death scene. The action was good at times, but after the 10th scenes of sentinels flying around, it became boring. I also agree with the reviews that say the characters take a backseat to the fx. I was surprised at how little Trinity, Morpheus, and to a point Neo were even IN the film. The most appealing character was Niobi. The whole trainman scenes were pointless and boring. Barely any Monica! Overall, a pretty major disappointment.

5/10
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#59
I'm keeping this short...

I liked this movie.
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#60
Quote:

Originally posted by Micah Robinson
I don't want to emphasize my problems with it too much, because indeed those 3 action sequences - The real world fistfight with Bane, The Zio siege, The Smith fight at the end - are well-done and position the Wachowskis to be a major force in action direction from this point onward (I'm really curious as to how Kurt Wimmer evaluates their stuff here). They are worth the price of admission whether you love or hate any of the previous Matrix films.

But I can't call this a satisfying follow-up, or a follow-up at all for that matter, because it doesn't follow-up the second film. It in fact contradict and negates it, and while the idea of a half billion dollar gotcha prank may seem amusing, I think it's a cruel joke toward anyone who trusted the Wachowskis by investing time, thought, and passion into the possibilities Reloaded raised.


I think the whole point of the two films is to set up a DIALOGUE between them. Reloaded proposed the buddhist philosophy, where things run in circles, never-ending. Revolutions proposes the Hindu philosophy, where a person CAN make a difference, and things can be brought to an end. The whole Smith/Neo fight at the end is akin to a battle of the Hindu gods Vishnu and Shiva, who are basically part of each other but their purposes are completely opposing. Shiva is a good god, however, so Smith does not completely represent Shiva. He also represents evil, maybe like Satan, I guess. But basically Neo is the preserver, and Smith is the destroyer, a la Vishnu and Shiva for the purposes of this "superbrawl". Hence the song in Sanskrit, which describes what's happening, and how Neo can bring everything to an end - by accepting his own death, and becoming a spirit, i.e. just ascending back to where he came from. I think that's what ultimately happens to him. He is dead, he's just a spirit now, and he might pop up once in a while in the Matrix Online, somehow.
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#61
Quote:

Originally posted by PeakFreak
things i did not like....

the slowmotion hitting smith in the head
the lack of fight sequences
the unanswered questions

things i loved....
battle of zion/return to zion chase
smith at the house of the oracle

questions unanswered...
they seemed to not even touch on SOOOOO many little things
what the fuck is the year anyways

1 - HOW did Neo accomplish being between two worlds
2 - How is it he sees the way he does when he is blind
3 - did he die at the end and what about the others knowing his fate - outside of them knowing he stopped the war
4 - the point of the child
5 - how did smith imprint on the REAL Bane - was it like a hypnotic suggestion or something of this sort
6 - how will everyone else be reawakened - all at once or one at a time and will others return back into the matrix for the hell of it
7 - will they find anything to change the sky back?
8 - was machine city in 0-1

lastly and most importantly
9 - if the machines created the whole thing to keep people in there so they had power - why would they release everyone - would that not make the machines be without power? what will their power be now?


Answer to #2: He can see only things that have machine origin. He can't see Trinity. He's touching the source so the source kind of gives him a secondary sight. But I do believe it's "the blink of vishnu" philosophy behind it. Though I don't think they went anywhere with that idea for some reason.

4. The point of the child was to show she's free from the Matrix. She has no purpose, but she exists. Showing that machines can evolve. Personally, I thought they woudl do a lot more with this than they did. One of the possible endings that was leaked had the Kid replacing the Architect, but it would have made real sense if she replaced the Architect. If her name was Aditi that is. But she was named Sati, a Hindu goddess that was the wife of Shiva, who threw herself upon a funeral pyre when Shiva insulted her father. Something like that. Aditi was the wife of Brahma, another Hindu goddess. Her name means "free" basically the very definition of Sati. So this is a little weird, IMHO, that they didn't do it this way. She's the product of love between two programs, something that programs aren't supposed to be able to have. So she could understand love and assimilate into the Architect and rewrite the code of the Matrix to become a language which would humans and machines both understand, i.e. the concept of love would be incorporated into the system finally.

Obviously, none of this happens, which is perplexing because it seems that this would be a more logical end than they brought about: where humans and machines are both separate entities, that don't exactly understand each other, yet machines are now beginning to understand what love is. I have to see the film again, though, and I did like it. Of course I'm viewing the film from a Hindu perspective.

5. Bane's pretty much brainwashed, i.e. he has a remote connection to Smith. He's under his control. The same way Neo links with Smith at the end by Smith taking over his body, and the machines pulling his plug, so that the link is broken destroying both Neo and Smith's connections and resetting everything back to normal.

6. Some want to awaken, some don't. Those that don't stay, while those that do are free to leave.

8. I think machine city is 0-1.
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#62
The girl?

Born of two programs in love, and can change the weather? I think it is maybe it is she who is "the one."

Don'tcha think?
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#63
I think disappointment best sums up my feelings towards the film.

Yes, there is some really cool shit: Smith, Trinity's death scene, the Superbrawl. I liked the siege although I felt it lacked heart and could be incredibly cheesy at times (I lost it at "Neo! I believe!"Wink.

But the film was ultimately unfulfilling. It seems like the Wachowskis were too hung up on answering philosophical questions than on answering plot questions. Throwing everything from the previous film out the window is not a mindfuck. A mindfuck is where you should have seen it coming and Revolutions is no such thing. It's like restarting and making all previous story efforts a rip-off and ultimately leading the viewer nowhere. I bought it once with Reloaded, because I thought they would eventually tie it all together. The only thing that seems to tie Revolutions back to the original Matrix is Neo's come-hither and fight me finger move.

I don't dislike the film and I'm willing to give it a second viewing in a few weeks, but I can't help but feel like the story got away from the Bros. in their attempt to dish out their own philosophy course.

Oh, and the final scene was beyond cheesy. I thought someone was going to cry out PRAISE JESUS! Seriously, we did the christ thing in the first film and having a giant cross come out of Neo is laying it on a little thick.
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#64
Massive disappointment.

All the great stuff I've debated and discussed with friends was totally ignored. The movie in my head was so much greater then what was delivered and that's an unfair way to watch Revolutions

I'm going to go see this movie again next week. This time I'll be going to it not looking for answers, but to watch it for what it actually presents. I won't be sitting waiting for someone, anyone, to go into the story I wanted to see, but watch it for the story the Brothers wanted to present.

I think this'll help me enjoy it a bit more. I hope so anyways.
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#65
THe Ziuon vs. Sentinels battle is impressive, but the Brother's made one big mistake: there's no one we care about at Zion. Maybe Zee. Maybe that's tard of a boy. But the fight for humanity's survival is just sort of there. Sitting.

Best shot in the film? When Neo and Trin's ship goes through the clouds. Awesome.
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#66
Saw it at the 6 am show. Matrix Reloaded and Matrix Revolutions put together would have been a good movie. The crap would've been chopped, and the important stuff would have stood out more. In fact, I believe that that fictional movie might have lived up to Joel Silver's rediculous claims.

In ways Revolutions is better than Reloaded, but not many. It does have some inspired moments that make it feel more like Matrix 1.
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#67
I have mixed feelings and can understand the mixed reviews.

I still will give it a 7 out of 10 though. May change on later viewings or after is sinks in.

Also, did I happen to notice 3 power lines inside of zion? Was Zion and 01 always connected?
The reason for my lower rating, still too many questions left unanswered.

Also, the phrase "It is done" or whatever the machine said at the end (can't remember the exact phrase right now). I remember hearing somewhere that it's the definition of "Amen".

The Battles were awesome.
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#68
Before my showing, they showed the couple month-old Last Samurai trailer. Right as he came on screen, some dude yelled "I HATE TOM CRUISE!". So funny.
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#69
While the movie was entertaining, I found I cared for it less than Reloaded. Mainly due to the fact, as has been said, it tossed all of Reloaded's Plotlines out the Window.

I couldn't stand the New Oracle. I really wish they would've went in a completely new direction. Her casting was way off, and whereis Gloria was spot on, the best way to change this would be to get a totally different look for her replacement, such as a child, or something else.

The Good: Smith. He completely saved and stole this movie. The Oracle Smith scene and the Pit Smith speech were really the only good dialogue in the movie

Merovingian and Persephonne were fun, but should've had much more in this movie.

The trainman concept was cool.

The fights were good.

The Bad:
I felt zero chemistry there between Neo and Trinity. I felt more chemistry between Link and his girl, in the 10 minutes they were onscreen.

The Trinity death speech.. It lasted longer than War and Peace, and totally lacked emotion.

The dialogue and cheesiness factor were huge.

It taking Neo forever to figure out Bane is smith.. Hello, Mcfly?

Overall, the movie was fun, but watching it made me feel the Wochi's need to stick with writing and let a better director move the pieces.
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#70
This film was fucking beautiful and extremely moving. I feel bad for those that didn't have the same experience I did.

God bless the Wachowskis.
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