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Post Release The Matrix Revolutions discussion (SPOILERS)

Originally posted by Sean Bateman
This film was fucking beautiful and extremely moving. I feel bad for those that didn't have the same experience I did.

I think I'll manage without your pity.
I thought the movie was entertaining, but I agree with much from Reloaded was wasted here. Why was Neo captured? What purpose did it serve, other than to introduce us to more "programs" whose importance never became clear? Seraph? Not needed at all. The Merovingian? I don't understand his power as a program. How was he able to "capture" Neo? Was THAT the reason behind the Percephone kiss? If so, never explained. Hell, we didn't even need the sub-plot of BANE entering the "real world." All it resulted in was another fight scene between Neo and "Smith." They easily could have made one longer sequel and have the entire story be just as affective and entertaining.

And yeah, that one shot with the ship going into the sky was breath taking. Probably my favorite of the entire series.
i think about half way through i realized i didn't really care about what happened to anyone or any machine in this movie. Im just indifferent at this point. I think they pushed it too far, the matrix was good enough.

Thought Matrix was solid, thought Reloaded had good action scenes, and this.....didn't really care. Nothing really stood out to me(fights, dialogue, story, etc). About the only time i had a reaction was when Smith talks to the Oracle.

The action:was a whirlwind of Effects, that's about it. The mech battle, the superbrawl, etc. The shootout was "lobby shootout lite". We learn that walking on walls really can't give you that winning edge.
And what the hell, no Seraph/Smith fight? Smith is following Seraph and the girl and the payoff is....fade to black. Gee i wonder why Jet turned down the role....

The story: How stupid was the thing with "Merv"? Mr. Cool Badass lets the "power trio" come up and join him in his club, the trio(that's three people) get a hold of some guns(after they gave their guns up 2 seconds before), 8,000 of merv's men surround the trio(they all have guns) and Merv cracks under the pressure of one gun pointed to his head? SMOOTH AS SILK BABY!

Dialogue: Overwritten in "Reloaded" fashion. Trinity has a 15 minute monologue before she dies, The father of the child turns the simple words "i love my daughter" into 15 pages of dialogue,etc

I agree about Bane/Neo. The guy was doing a great Smith imitation, saying exact lines he had said to Neo, pausing for effect, and.....Neo: "wha....?"

One more thing:
The giant Gerber Baby head made of sentinels was funny.
The dookie things in these two new Matrixes stem from the problem of giving the directors WAY too much control over the film. Sometimes it's good to have a solid producer there to tell these guys that they're undulging too much. Look at Francis Ford Coppola, he made the Godfather 1 and 2 with Robert Evans fighting him tooth and nail.

The other side to their motivations for writing cheesy dialouge, etc, is that Matrix 1 was basically full to the brim of past ideas, but Matrix 2 and 3 were less complete ideas that needed to be filled out.

In other words, Matrix 1 had the benefit of being a complete film in their minds, being polished over and over again, years before they ever even made it.

*Added thoughts* Plus, remember how Matrix 1 was storyboarded shot for shot to get the the greenlight from the Warners execs? 10 to 1 says that if they had storyboarded the sequels they would have met resistance. (They would have seen how the cheesy dialouge scenes just suck the energy out of the film.)

Just got back from a 10:10 a.m. showing (it's my day off -- yes, I DO have a job), and I have to say:

On balance, that was pretty bloody awful.

This is not a function of overblown expectations. My expectations were low. I liked about 45 minutes of 'Reloaded' quite a bit, but thought it had serious problems. But now I see there was literally no need for "The Matrix: Reloaded" other than as a prop for a couple of amazing set pieces. The Reloaded plot machinations -- the Merovingian, the whole thing with the Keymaker the Architect's word spew, the death and resurrection of Trinity, the mythology of The One and the six before him and the weird numerological dictates? Red herrings. Dropped like hot stones.

After a leaden start -- imagine the first 40 minutes of 'Revolutions' as being like the worst expository parts of 'Reloaded' without the thrill of discovery -- two very linear battles ensue: Neo vs. the Machines and Smith, and Everybody else vs. the Sentinels in Zion.

To be fair, those set pieces and the production design and the music are amazing in "Revolutions." The Zion battle is terrifying. The Superbrawl is cool-looking, albeit repetitive after the third collision in the rain. These F/X cum shots and the "atmosphere" weren't the problem. The problem was that:

(1) Our core heroes -- Trinity, Morpheous, and Neo -- are all but discarded and lost among a needlessly large cast. Seriously: There was no reason at all that several of these supporting characters couldn't be combined. Lock and Mifune? Redundant. The woman Zee helps with her rocket launcher? Could have been the kid. I've been astonished at how many characters were dropped into this story and discarded. How much more involving would the conflict between the captains have been if it had been restricted to Morpheous vs. Niobe? Very, very flabby scripting.

(2) The dialogue is just utterly forgettable. The only person who gets good lines is Smith (and Smith/Bane), but what could have been the coolest part of the movie -- him taking over the entire Matrix, including the Merovingian and Persephone, which must have happened -- happens completely offscreen. I would have traded any scene with Zee or Commander Lock or the council for just one shot of Smith wiping out that Frenchman.

(3) The final scene is unbelievably, jaw-droppingly sappy and mawkish. And so shamelessly opens it up for a sequel that it very nearly made me sick. "Will we see Neo again?" "I'm sure we will." This is an actual exchange of dialogue, and it's said as a sun rises over pink clouds.

(4) There was this scene with Mifune and the Kid that played like a DVD deleted scene. "How old are you?" "You won't cut it in my infantry!" Lines like this are bandied about all over the place -- like a bad high-school production of a translated-from-Latin production of The Red Badge of Courage. Just absolutely unnecessary. This movie has "Phantom Menace" levels of needless exposition.

Again, to be fair, the Machine City is really amazing; this movie is totally drenched in atmosphere. That may be enough for you. But for me, here's the thing: Set pieces and production design are not enough. Even characters I cared about were lost here. Had the last two movies been combined into one tight story, it might be salvageable. As it stands, I will never, ever trust franchise hype again, ever.

The following writeup actually sums up EXACTLY how I feel, and does so very, very skillfully:

"The Matrix Exposed"
If it only had a brain.....

There's a decent 3 hour sequel to the original Matrix hidden within these two films, but Revolutions is a bit of an insult.

I had some problems with "Reloaded" (didn't think the action sequences were well integrated with the narrative), but I could never accuse it of a lack of ambition in terms of attempting to deepen the mythological and philosophical construct posited in the original. It was a vessel for ideas and opened up the universe with mystery and characters which seemed to hint at even more interesting things to come.

Revolutions is all bloated, expensive spectacle. It's a film that can truly be explained in two sentences and you wouldn't miss a goddamn thing. Add the clunky storytelling and acting, the continued lack of emotional power to this franchise, and you're left with forgettable fluff.

That's sad. For this franchise, that's sad. But it's even more than that----it's an insult. This didn't need to be 2 sequels. That was Warners forcing the issue and the Wachowskis compromising. Revolutions makes this clear as rain. This script isn't even a rough draft!

What I liked......

-Bellucci Bosoms

-Smith's scene with the Oracle (the only scene with any emotional power)

-5 minutes of the Zion siege.

-1 or 2 shots of the "Superhero fight"

That's it. It's pretty sad but Micah is hundred percent correct.

The film people discussed and imagined for the last 6 months was more interesting than anything the W Bros. came up with.

BTW, Trinity's death scene/love pledge is funnier than anything in Scary Movie 3. It's a dramatic scene that actually plays like a spoof. Flatline emotionality going on and on and on and on.....
Not to be a weisenheimer, Mecha, but I prophesized just such a thing after Reloaded came out.

Call me the Oracle.
Troy trailer rocked. Liked everything except the show-off opening reveal.

Back to the Revolutions.....

That Vasquez wannabe had to be intentional homage, right?

That Vasquez wannabe had to be intentional homage, right?

You mean the rocket-launcher with Zee, right? I'm sure that's what they had in mind. But again: Why not introduce that character in a context (or a prior story point) that allows us to care about her?

I watched Alien and Aliens as a Halloween double-feature last week, and I was struck by how quickly Cameron was able to sketch these easily differentiated Marine characters. Everybody has a memorable moment, and it's all remarkably economical (a little cartoony and broad, but economical, and in the service of a terrific Vietnam metaphor). I really think one of the great failings of these Matrix sequels is the failure to consolidate and differentiate the supporting cast -- unless I'm missing some crucial character development from the video games, which is lame for a totally different reason.

I mean, for just one example: We had Zee. Fine. But why did we also have Zee's friend, the beautiful woman with the kids? In Reloaded, she's in the scene when the Link comes home, and leaves; in Revolutions, she has a few lines in a scene where Zee decides to join the battle, and she's never seen again.

I mean, come on. That's just FLABBY.
It was decent, but not as good as the first two. It really had me until they went to the machine city. In the end I think Trinity's death is a big mistep, and that Neo's defeat of Smith is empty. He defeats him up and letting him win. Yay!

I really wish it had built upon what Reloaded promised. I'm okay with answers not being provided, but it seems like Revolutions negates all the questions. The kiss, the Merovingian, the fact that this was the sixth iteration, all of it seems meaningless.

I get the sense from the movie that somewhere along the way during the making of Reloaded and Revolutions the Wachowski brothers lost all passion for this story and just concluded it via really expensive paint-by-numbers.

*sigh* Bring on ROTK.
And on a shallow, and obvious, note...

That Indian woman was absolutely gorgeous.
Um, while Reloaded's philosophizing came front and center, I think the philosophizing for Revolutions went back into the background. that's not a bad thing, IMHO. In this case, the ACTION speaks for the philosophy, and while much of it was spectacle, there were still relevant bits that were related to reloaded. When Neo begins to see the machine aura, there's no dialogue about WHY that happens. It was briefly explained, yet there's more to it than that, since it indicates something about the nature of the real world itself, IMHO. The fact that the powers of the One extend beyond the Matrix, indicate that maybe the real world's reality is a matter of perception as well, and the Matrix can be as real as the person who's perceiving it wants it to be.

The whole point of Reloaded was that the machines were exerting control over mankind, that it would continue forever, unless something happened that was different. The oracle made sure that something different happened this time around by putting love, the most unpredictable of human emotions, into the equation. she wanted to end the war, instead of just maintaining a balance. The only way to do that was to keep Neo from fulfilling a buddhist destiny on the machine's terms. In Revolutions, he fulfills his destiny on his own terms, which is a mix of Christian, buddhist and hindu philosophy.

I didn't find the ending sappy, but rather one that acknowledges that while things are at a standstill right now, Neo will come again when he is needed: which is when the war is started all over again.
As I said in a post above, I'm hoping (desperately hoping) that repeat viewings of Revolutions change my mind. I'm willing to give it another chance, with open arms, because I acknowledge that it was probably 6 months of hypothesising that subconsciously altered my expectations. Christ I sound like the Architect. Anyway, I don't have a good feeling. I saw it Monday night and have been waiting to sate my self-imposed Revolutions literature-ban by lapping up other people's takes once it came out. I said to my mate leaving the Savoy cinema in Dublin - walking down the street, having a discussion as to the merits/lack thereof of the film - I said "People are going to fucking HATE that movie" and I have to say, horribly sad as it makes me, I'm seeing about 90% 'Ah for fuck's sake, that's IT?' and 10% 'THAT RAWWWWKED!kind of'. Why does that make me sad? Because as has been discussed before, the debates, the theories, the possibilities Reloaded presented seemed limitless in those heady 6 months. And they just....didn't materialise. I think people who liked Revolutions more than Reloaded will baffle me for the rest of my life. In much the same way as people who watch Sex and the City, or voluntarily cook brussel sprouts.
I must say I love Agent Smith. I love Weaving's portrayal and line delivery in the first 2 films. But did anyone else think he was over-acting a bit in Revolutions? His line delivery, especially near the end, seemed a bit over the top, even for that character

Originally posted by Adverb
It was decent, but not as good as the first two. It really had me until they went to the machine city. In the end I think Trinity's death is a big mistep, and that Neo's defeat of Smith is empty. He defeats him up and letting him win. Yay!

I really wish it had built upon what Reloaded promised. I'm okay with answers not being provided, but it seems like Revolutions negates all the questions. The kiss, the Merovingian, the fact that this was the sixth iteration, all of it seems meaningless.

I get the sense from the movie that somewhere along the way during the making of Reloaded and Revolutions the Wachowski brothers lost all passion for this story and just concluded it via really expensive paint-by-numbers.

*sigh* Bring on ROTK.

While I kind of agree about Trinity's death, Neo's sacrifice corresponds to Hindu philosophy. He had to accept his own death to finally end the war. Smith and Neo are pretty much one and the same and the only way to defeat Smith would have to be to let him win.
To clarify, I've got no problem with Neo dying, but his defeat of Smith is very passive. Which I guess you could say makes sense, because the only way to stop wars is to not fight them blah blah blah. But eventually I want my hero to actually take a stand (as he did in the original) and make an active choice. Maybe if it hadn't been the big spikey ball thing that destroyed Smith, but instead something within Neo, I would have been happier.
Okay then, answer me this.

It's totally concievable and likely that I missed this, but why did the Oracle change her appearance? Yes I know Gloria Foster died so they brought in another actress, but it is mentioned in the film that her appearance has changed (The french guy asks about it) but never answered.

It's totally concievable and likely that I missed this, but why did the Oracle change her appearance? Yes I know Gloria Foster died so they brought in another actress, but it is mentioned in the film that her appearance has changed (The french guy asks about it) but never answered.

It's pretty vague, but the implication seemed to be that the Merovingian dissembled her 'shell' as punishment for tipping off Neo about the Keymaker. This was her new body, which they implied she somehow cobbled together herself; I guess she whipped up in the kitchen or something. Why she didn't just replicate the old body is a bit of a mystery. I mean, it's not like she was in hiding: She was living at the same damn address, for God's sake.
You were supposed to buy the video game.

....Apparantly, the Merovingian had the Oracle "killed" for helping the humans, but she was somehow powerful enough to come back as a bad actress.
Oh, man. M.E., you just pointed out a big plot hole that is a glaring representation of how far the writing quality has fallen. Because as I remember it, the oracle living in a dump in hiding (maybe more for the protection of the "other potentials"Wink was a really cool part of the ambiance of that first scene with her in Martix 1, really underscoring the feeling of danger posed by the programs who policed the Matrix
What the hell - I need to play that game again. I completed it and never caught that. Well it's good to see it was all vague anyhow.

On another note, I liked it well enough. But ultimately it left me empty. As impressive as the Zion battle was I just didn't care. Actually the only one who I hoped wouldn't die was Link bizarrely enough.
Am I the only one who's getting tired of all the movies coming out where all it's talent lies in the FX, production design (and associates), art direction, and cinematography people, or basically anyone who isn't the writer or the director?

Maybe one time a studio should just say fuck it and abruptly fire the director and writer and let the rest of the crew fill in just to see what happens. They're obviously the ones who actually have their heads in the game, and I bet they could improv pretty well.
I've never seen a movie that bears his name so well.

Originally posted by Blunt
I've never seen a movie that bears his name so well.

Who's name?
Well what movie are we discussing?
The Matrix Revolutions? I don't get it.

Originally posted by Agent Back Smith
The Matrix Revolutions? I don't get it.

This post basically says it all.
Saw Matrix Revolutions this afternoon. Came up with some bullshit excuse to pull a half-day at work. Yes, I am pathetic. But I'm a film addict, what can I say? Anyway...

Loved the movie, but feel I need to see it again to really take it all in. Two things that I didn't care for:

- the "ceiling" gunfight - parts of this felt stale. I think they could haved edited this down a bit.

- the references to the videogame were awkward, and if I wasn't such a filmgeek I would've been wondering what movie I'd missed.

Otherwise a truly excellent experience for me. Loved the SuperBrawl. Loved the siege (especially the death of the captain and the Kid's role in getting the gate open). Loved the machine city. Loved the end. And I admit freely to loving Trinity's death scene. True closure for Neo. Wouldn't we all want the same?

Man I'm a sap.
What I mean is: the name Revolutions is perfectly appropriate as I feel that it reflects the film both on terms of filmmaking (because really, how the fuck are you gonna top that kind of action) and in regards to the content of the film. Really, the ending and its implication are clearly announced in the title so I don't see why the big fuss about how it's a big dissapointment and means jack squat. Here:

"A sudden or momentous change in a situation". Applies to the fact that they've changed the Matrix. It still exists, but it is now a very different Matrix, one where freedom, and especially freedom of choice (which in the end is what these movies are all about) exists. Then there's "A turning or rotational motion about an axis, A single complete cycle of such orbital or axial motion." Now this refers to the fact that even if the Matrix is changed, what they've done is complete the cycle that was described by the Architect in Reloaded, albeit in a different way than what was planned, which touches on another topic of choice of the series, predeterminism.
Blunt- Now that I know what you're talking about, I'd have to agree. When you said "his" rather than "its" to refer to the film itself, I thought you were referring to a character.

Carl- Yes it does, but only for you. I wish the blatant and mostly surface innuendos in Revolutions had the depth, scope, and infinite possibilities of meanings that your post did. For all we know, you could be speaking in a metaphor alluding to the lack of AIDS and safe sex education in Africa.

Sorry. I'm really tired.
Ah, sorry, didn't realize I used the wrong pronoun. Forgive me, it's 2:am here, been up since 7:AM yesterday, saw the film twice and discussed it to death so I'm not thinking straight.

Regarding Trinity, she dies precisely because she has served her purpose. Trinity in religion is the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. She's the Father in the first film (gives birth to Neo by leading him to Morpheus, which sets the events in motion, then by resurrecting him), the Son (that is, JC) in the second one (resurrected) and the Holy Spirit in this one, in that she guides Neo to his destiny. Now that all her roles have been fulfilled, she's needless. Hence the acceptance of her death by saying "I can" [die].
Well, shit. There goes my theory about Neo being a metephor for Rowdy Roddy Piper's career.
I WANT to participate in this thread (in the conversational sense), but I simply don't have the mental fortitude right now. I feel exhausted, and BRAINRAPED by this movie, in many different ways. So, I'll just state my initial feelings.

The long and short of it: I had the biggest fucking smile on my face for the first hour. Yes the much hated First Hour. The day before I saw this, I had viewing 20 or 21 of Reloaded, and I finally felt fully CONNECTED with it. So that was the mood I was coming into this with.

I was coming into it with the intention of analyzing every line of dialogue and every event, theorizing it's possible implications on the rest of the mythology in many different ways. It is doing THAT, in addition to the action, that makes these some of my favorite movies.

The Zion defense. Great. Can't really think of anything more to say.

The Smith battle MUCH different than I imagined. It's the same way as with the Burly Brawl. It's done in such a unique, HIGHLY stylized/symbolic way, that is has a strange effect on first viewing. It's very difficult to forget that those fights aren't just about using powers to kill the other guy quickly and efficiently. It is about their interaction. It is about their fascination with each other (this fascination mostly realized in Smith's speach in the pit). Hence, it had a strange effect on first viewing. But I still loved it a lot.

The cinematography. ESPECIALLY in the Neo/Bane battle and the Smith end battle. Just unspeakable beauty that I did not at all expect.

Well, that's all for now. Actually, I think I'm going to try to not bother with doing any reactionary posts, try to answer any criticisms. It just plain has no point with these films. They effect each person in such a different way. "What's your point, Councellor?" "Oh, no point. Men like me don't bother making points." And so on.
I am trying to avoid all the unwarranted negativity in this thread. For some reason I am starting to take it personally. I love this film on a slightly unhealthy level.

I almost cried during several moments during the film. If I was the crying type I would have embarassed myself completely.

Favorite bits:

-The scene with Neo and the program father. Very moving.
-"I don't have time for this shit."
-Trinity getting off the train. Perfect.
-The Smiths vs. Oracle--goddamn that was a powerful scene. It was almost like a masterwork horror scene with the lights and the unending swarm of Smiths. Weaving's delivery of "I'm not such a bad guy once you get to know me," is one of the all time great line readings.
-Neo saying goodbye to Morpheus. Dear god that was a sad bit.
-Everything Mifune.
-The whole siege was amazing but the bit with the kid, and the part where Zee saves the day were fucking fantastic.
-Trinity's view of the sky prior to her death. Beautiful.
-Trinity's death was fucking devastating. It was handled
extremely well.
-Keannu Reeves giving all the naysayers a reason to shut the fuck up.
-The final few minutes. Deja vu with the cat all over again. The sunset. Oracle and Architect. Beyond perfect.

I really love the ambiguity of the ending. The film is a tremendously rewarding experience for Matrix fans. They answered all the questions they needed to answer, and didn't answer all the ones they shouldn't. You are still left to interpret most of the events and that is an amazing thing as far as I am concerned.

They also did an amazing job of tying the theme of choice together, especially with Neo's answer to Smith.

Love. Love. Love. Just fucking love.

10.0 out of 10.0

(I would give it more if that was mathematically possible)

And on an odd note, I just read SJR's review for the film and every reason he lists for why he doesn't love it are the same things that make the film work for me. Strange.
Bateman, for once....I completely agree with you. Perfection!

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