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Post Release The Matrix Revolutions discussion (SPOILERS)
I like the Scientology comparision, so when can we expect to be sued?
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Yeah, it seems like things are getting out of hand here.

I see where you are going here with talk about the repetition between the lovers and haters of the movie. That's why I was trying a different approach to the arguement, by talking about how not only wree the sequels flawed in many ways (though I still enjoyed them immensely), but the original wasn't all that great the more you looked at it. Just a different take on the arguement.

But you did hit the nail on the head...though it does apply to both sides of this issue: it's ONLY a movie. The bile that's been spewed at this thing has been just as rediculous as the almost fanatic devotion to it at times.

If people didn't like it, that's fine. There's no one holding a gun to their heads to watch it, and they won't convince the people that *do* like them that they suck.

At the same time, it's rediculous for the lovers of the film to decry those that didn't like it as ignorant. As has been stated many times before, it seems like people did get it...and they didn't like it. That's their perogative to believe that.

Ultimately all these debates, arguements, and now (perceived) personal attacks are not going to matter...the lovers will continue to love it (I watched it again last night and still loved it, despite Trinity's Sheriff of Nottingham-esque death scene), and the haters will continue to hate it, no matter what one side says or another.

So I guess my take on this is, if you really hated the sequels all that much, there's the original to enjoy all you want. If you love the sequels all that much, go see them in the theaters again and again to let the Wachowski's know you liked what they had to say.

Me, I'm looking forward to seeing it on IMAX in Vegas in a couple of weeks, and I'm sure I'll still enjoy watching it as much as the first time I watched it.

Thanks.
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Quote:

Originally posted by Noeland James Collins
Well, I'm sorry you didn't think so.

I was trying to make a point though.

I have been in the middle of this endless thread for a while, and I have seen some people taking the films a little too seriously, over thinking the most minor things in the film, and couldn't resist poking a little fun. I do apologize if I pissed anyone off.

These are after all, three sci fi films right? Based entirely on other materials?

I have enjoyed the back and forth on this thread, but it's getting to be that it has repeated itself like 20 times now, so I just wanted to shake it up a little. Don't hate me.

Njc---------------------------------------------------------


Too late.
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Quote:

Originally posted by PNHDoug
Yeah, it seems like things are getting out of hand here.

I see where you are going here with talk about the repetition between the lovers and haters of the movie. That's why I was trying a different approach to the arguement, by talking about how not only wree the sequels flawed in many ways (though I still enjoyed them immensely), but the original wasn't all that great the more you looked at it. Just a different take on the arguement.

But you did hit the nail on the head...though it does apply to both sides of this issue: it's ONLY a movie. The bile that's been spewed at this thing has been just as rediculous as the almost fanatic devotion to it at times.

If people didn't like it, that's fine. There's no one holding a gun to their heads to watch it, and they won't convince the people that *do* like them that they suck.

At the same time, it's rediculous for the lovers of the film to decry those that didn't like it as ignorant. As has been stated many times before, it seems like people did get it...and they didn't like it. That's their perogative to believe that.

So I guess my take on this is, if you really hated the sequels all that much, there's the original to enjoy all you want. If you love the sequels all that much, go see them in the theaters again and again to let the Wachowski's know you liked what they had to say.

Well said, Doug - I enjoyed the first Matrix AND Reloaded, but found Revolutions lacking for various reasons. I'll still probably re-watch it, but to say I didn't "get it" is flat-out insulting.

The other thing is that YOUR take, Noeland's semi-satiric post, and my own theory, all of which had something interesting and unique to say, get buried under all the "he-said, she-said" bickering, which is sad.
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Quote:

Originally posted by deus_ex_machina
Too late.

Woah woah...you *hate* him because he made a joke? It wasn't *that* bad, and besides, it sounds like you think he was singling you out specifically, when a *lot* of the sequel lovers (myself included) have been guilty of over-analyzing the series as a whole.

It is just a movie, after all. I know this....that's why I enjoy the series immensely, because while I do enjoy thinking about what the Wachowski's were trying to say, I don't take it all that seriously.

It seems like this thread has been relatively peaceful so far. I'd hate to see it devolve into a series of posts where people on both sides take comments too seriously.

It's just a movie.
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Quote:

Originally posted by deus_ex_machina
Too late.

All you need is love man, remember?

Didn't Neo go to Valhalla because he loved Trinity with his mighty Hammer?
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Quote:

Originally posted by CapitanAmerica
All you need is love man, remember?

Didn't Neo go to Valhalla because he loved Trinity with his mighty Hammer?


He didnt.

He loved her enough to choose her over saving the rest of mankind. Now, that's love. It's brutal, yeah, but it's love. Great how Reloaded shows that.

It is interesting how Revolutions does nearly the same thing, it shows how Neo is free, by killing off Trinity in the end...so in the end, Neo isnt fighting for anything else. He fights because he chooses to.

..but maybe I'm overanalyzing, so what do i know?
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he didn't simply choose trinity over the rest of humanity... he rejected the reload because it was just another "system of control"
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I think both reasons, love and fighting the system, can be considered valid. What made me think it was love is the Architect's words, where he says "She is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it."

It's interesting that the Architect gives Neo a choice at all...perhaps that is his confidence that, whatever choice Neo makes, the machines are prepared for it; no matter what the consequence, the machines will still be in power, and in the end, that is partly true, since humanity cannot simply be freed--not everyone would survive such an event.
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I'm still listening to the Matrix cds I have from time to time and I noticed on the Reloaded cd with the RELOADED SUITE track when you get to the part where Neo brings Trinity back to life you can hear in the background a beeping sound, kind of like the heart monitor being activated as she comes back to life. I also noticed the same beeping sound, only maybe a bit softer and slower near the end of the SPIRIT OF THE UNIVERSE track from the Revolutions cd. This part is from the end of the movie and i'm mostly sure that by the time we hear it the machines have carted Neo away. Maybe it takes place during the sunrise or something... Anyway, the fact that it's there leads me to believe that Neo is still alive, in spiritual form at the very least.

I just wanted to point that out to you guys and wonder if anybody else noticed it...
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Quote:

Originally posted by deus_ex_machina
I think both reasons, love and fighting the system, can be considered valid. What made me think it was love is the Architect's words, where he says "She is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it."

It's interesting that the Architect gives Neo a choice at all...perhaps that is his confidence that, whatever choice Neo makes, the machines are prepared for it; no matter what the consequence, the machines will still be in power, and in the end, that is partly true, since humanity cannot simply be freed--not everyone would survive such an event.



Actually, there was no "choice", because Neo re-entering the Source wasn't a possibility. There were a variety of causes at play, but what seperated him from the other "Ones" was his love for Trinity. Notice that throughout his conversation with the Architect, there were various reactions that were displayed on the monitors, but when it came time to choose, every single Neo choose to save Trinity.

The Architect knew it, too:

Quote:

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you’re going to do, don’t we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

To answer your question deus, the Architect knew exactly what Neo was going to do. No real "choice" there.
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First time, long time.

Whew...finally finished reading this monster of a thread. It's hard to believe, based on the thread, that the movie has only been out for a little over a week.

Anyways, I'm didn't care for Revolutions that much. The reasons have been stated many times throughout the thread. I think Jonas has been the most outspoken supporter of the movie and brings up some really interesting religious and philisophical metaphors in the movies. However, to me, just because the W Bros read up on some religious and philosophy books doesn't make them great screen writers or directors. It's seems like most people who had problem with the movie didn't have problem with the metaphors, but instead, they had problems with how the abundance of metaphors tried to cover up the mistakes the Bros made in their story. It seemed like the two of them were overly concerned with impressing us with what they've learned about religions and philosophies and forgot to focus on what makes good dialogues, story, and characters. Just offering my 2 cents.
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Quote:

Originally posted by Gio Angles

To answer your question deus, the Architect knew exactly what Neo was going to do. No real "choice" there.


I wasnt really asking a question in my post, but what you said is interesting, nonetheless. I think it is only in the last film, in Neo's final moments, that Neo actually has freedom, or 'control'; the control he has always wanted ever since the first film. But again, this is debatable, because Trinity DID die, Neo DID return to the source, he DID reload the matrix, so was it fate, or was it free will? Is the matrix in an endless cycle of prophecies? Its those kinds of questions that made the trilogy very interesting for me.
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Quote:

Originally posted by deus_ex_machina
I wasnt really asking a question in my post, but what you said is interesting, nonetheless. I think it is only in the last film, in Neo's final moments, that Neo actually has freedom, or 'control'; the control he has always wanted ever since the first film. But again, this is debatable, because Trinity DID die, Neo DID return to the source, he DID reload the matrix, so was it fate, or was it free will? Is the matrix in an endless cycle of prophecies? Its those kinds of questions that made the trilogy very interesting for me.

Yeah, it's definitely cloudy, but still very interesting.
Neo was designed to a degree by the machines as a measure of control, almost specifically to be a religious figure to the people of zion. The prophecy in it's story is real to those who believe it. It's all true from cycle to cycle except the part about The One leading to the end of the war. The prophecy is also artificial because it is more or less rooted as a construct of machines, so the "religion" involved is all a big lie as well, made up by those with power to control those without. Or is it? For the first time it would seem that the prophecy did indeed come true, but at the same time the machines got what they wanted out of it... The system was reloaded. For the first time in the cycle the world is heading into unchartered territory. There's no precedent for where they all are right now, which is probably exactly where the Wachowski brothers wanted to leave us off. Fate, destiny, choice, free will. Maybe it's an anomaly in itself because it seems like it's all and none at the same time.
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Quote:

Originally posted by deus_ex_machina
Too late.

Well, Neo would not be very proud of you, that's for sure.

I was not attacking you personally with my post, it just happened to be right after yours (and I didn't read your until afterwards, I had hit reply from the previuos page actually).

I wasn't attacking anyone for that matter. Just making a joke, and I WAS making fun of myself as well you know, I have been right in there doing the geek thing for post after post, and picking apart the films. It is fun to do so, but like someone else just mentioned, I don't take them very seriously.

Just a couple of films.

Njc-----------------
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Just to clarify--I wasn't calling anyone ignorant for not liking the movie. I was refering to the fact that all religions have corruption, and to not recognize this (or to condemn a faith because of it, without further investigation of its methods) is ignorant.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Yes, I do like the metaphors. I accepted the Matrix's flaws with the first movie; how could I be disappointed in the acting or melodrama, given that the worst of both is in the first movie? (IMO).

A couple of my friends investigated Seraphim in the Bible. Interestingly, the Seraphim cover their feet and hands with their wings (..."wingless" quote) and it also mean "burning bright" + "light" -partially explaining Seraph's golden-code appearance in the teahouse.
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Quote:

Originally posted by deus_ex_machina
I wasnt really asking a question in my post, but what you said is interesting, nonetheless. I think it is only in the last film, in Neo's final moments, that Neo actually has freedom, or 'control'; the control he has always wanted ever since the first film.

The thing with the Matrix films is that the W Bros never really define "free will" as "the abillity to made a decision, with at least one alternative". Having no alternatives of course doesn't leave you with choice. Their definition of "free will" as stated by the Oracle is "the ability to understand WHY you're doing what you're doing".


By their definition, Neo experienced free will when he understood why he needed to allow Smith to copy himself into him. That's perfectly acceptable, but it's not the same as to say that Neo actually made any choices. Everything that Neo did was caused by previous events, and they couldn't have happened any other way.

I would argue that there IS no "free will" in the Matrix, as we understand the term. All the "choices" are in fact the only choices that could have been made, which leads back to the Merovingian's causality speech. By changing the definition of free will, the W Bros avoid the issue of choice entirely.
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Loved this, but man am I getting sick of people in movies dying after being stabbed once by a 3/4 inch scalpel somewhere not particularly vital.
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Looks like it went straight for her heart to me. And you only saw 3/4 of an inch of the blade because he was hiding most of it in his hand and up his sleeve. Still, maybe she would have had a few more breaths instead of just collapsing dead right away. I don't know, I've never stabbed anyone.
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My two cents: I thought revolutions was brilliant.

IMHO, Matrix Revolutions was Hindu philosophy, while Reloaded was Buddhist philosophy. The original plays up the Christian angle, but I think it was more Buddhist/Hindu as well. Although Neo is seen as a messiah (so he is kind of like Christ in the first movie and he does perform some Christ-like things throughout the trilogy).

In the end, Neo is not christ. He is Christ, Buddha, and Vishnu combined.

Remember, it is emphasized that Neo and Smith are one and the same, that Neo's purpose is to protect while Smith's is to destroy. Neo represents Vishnu (the protector) while Smith represents Shiva (the destroyer) in the Matrix, during the Superbrawl. Neo completes all 3 destinies at that point, but people are so blinded by the fact that he forms a cross they just don't see that he is NOT Christ. For instance, when the Oracle talks about how we may see Neo again, she's talking about reincarnation once again. When Sati raises the sun, it's a whole new era with a whole new set of cycles, a "yuga" which is what Hindu time is divided into. And in each yuga, man is supposed to come one step closer to God, just like programs (in our world, it would be equated with humans) is supposed to come one step closer to humans (in our world, that would be God). It relates to Blink of Vishnu and the fact that the Matrix can be just as real as the real world, because the whole philosophical point behind the fact that machines can extend their control beyond the Matrix and that Neo's powers transcend the Matrix is that the real world's reality is also a matter of perception. It all goes back to what Cypher says in the first movie. When Neo meets Rama Kandra, it changes his mind about the destruction of the Matrix, and he decides to bargain with the machines in order to end the war AND to protect the Matrix at the same time. Because he realizes programs can evolve and are just as viable a species as humans are.

By the way, it is also hinted at that Neo is the same as the Architect, which would make the Architect Brahma (the Creator). He even looks like Brahma, IMHO.

IMHO, the Matrix trilogy owes more to Hinduism than it does to Christianity. The philosophical concepts are more in line with Hinduism and Buddhism than they are with Christianity. However, I have done some research into Christianity and Hinduism and there are quite a few similarities to each other. for instance, Christ has many similarities to Krishna (an incarnation of Vishnu). Not to mention Hinduism also has the whole adam and eve story and Noah's ark story.

by the way, Gnostic Christianity is ALSO Hindu philosophy. Blink of Vishnu states that Vishnu dreams of thousands of universes that are created and destroyed within the blink of an eye. In those universes, humans exist. Now, Vishnu wants to give them the ultimate pleasure, but humans reject him and choose to define their existence through suffering. So, Vishnu comes down in various incarnations to show humans how to come closer to God (this is what Rama Kandra does: he shows programs how to come closer to humans because he is the first program to truly know love like humans know it).

By the way, Everything that has a beginning has an end is Hindu philosophy. While the spirit is eternal, every form of matter has a beginning and an end. Even God's incarnations. This is what Neo realizes at the end, and that is why Neo accepts his own mortality and lets Smith take him over.

Also during the superbrawl, there is a song played. Those verses that are sung are directly out of the Upanishads, Hindu texts.

They sum up Neo's journey, and also point to how Neo is enlightened while Smith is ignorant. Neo knows and asserts his free will while Smith is caught up in purpose and destiny which makes Smith ignorant while Neo is enlightened. In Hindu philosophy, ignorance is equated with darkness and that is why the Oracle says "I see the darkness spreading", because she sees Smith infecting everyone with his ignorance.

When Neo is shown with light coming out of him, when light comes out of the Smiths, it is because Neo and Smith are one and the same. This is a fulfillment of the Buddha prophecy where, once the Buddha achieves true enlightenment, light comes out of his pores, like light is coming out of Neo and Smiths' pores.

Also, when Neo sees machine aura in the real world, it's just like how he sees code in the Matrix. He's achieving nirvana, and realizes the real world's own falseness. That's not to say it's a Matrix within a matrix, it's just that he realizes that reality is a matter of perception, and that the Matrix is just as viable a reality as the real world is.
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Wow, Revolutions only grossed about 4 million on Friday (less than Elf). It will probably gross less than the first Matrix and about 120 million less than Reloaded.
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it will probably gross less than T3
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Unfortunately, I think you're right.
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Just noticed this little blurb in amazon.com, which sums up many of the criticisms of this trilogy:



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...g...p;n=507846

Quote:

Features:

* Game script written and directed by the Wachowski Brothers' as an integral part of the entire Matrix experience--the movie is incomplete without the game, and the game is incomplete without the movie
* Players will see, only after playing the game, that their actions in the game can actually have an effect on the movie The Matrix Reloaded
* Nearly one full hour of exclusive, NEVER-BEFORE-SEEN Matrix footage using the film's actors and crew
* Likeness and voice-overs by the actors in The Matrix Reloaded, including Keanu Reeves, Carrie-Anne Moss, Lawrence Fishburne, Hugo Weaving, Jada Pinkett Smith, Anthony Wong, Lachy Hulme, and Monica Bellucci
* Highly original blend of best-selling game genres: action, exploration, fighting, driving

The movie is incomplete ... tsk, tsk, tsk.

Shameless.

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Shouldn't this thread be moved to Franchises?
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As an aside, the game is GOD AWFUL. I'm slogging through it one level at a time since the horrid camera makes me seasick. I just want to see Roy Jones Jr fight Seraph......then I dont have to play anymore.
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