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Devin's Requiem
#36
Quote:

Originally Posted by aine_grrr

Serenity is a cultural phenomenon

...
#37
Quote:

Originally Posted by devincf

Can someone post the reply Joss had to the piece here? I am not registered at the browncoats board. Thanks.

most if not all is in the Serenity post release but
Quote:

So I was flouncing (that's lurking but fancier) about WHEDONESQUE (for which I have forgotten my password yet again) and I couldn't help but see the little CHUD.com hate-bomb that Devin wrote. I don't mind that he doesn't love the film, but things like "It failed in a big way" and "It's over" are about as charming -- and journalistic -- as "I was right." I am being totally realistic when I say the weekend grosses did not meet expectations -- but those expectations were based on models that don't apply to this situation because, seriously, nothing does. The industry is not calling this a failure, just a slightly soft version of a normal opening in a generally weak weekend.

Now I did meet Devin, and he's not a dumb guy. But he seems to have a real animus against you Browncoats, and that's the thing I wanted to comment on, 'cause that doesn't sit well with me. He actually blames you guys for making sci-fi fans stay away from the movie. Says you should be ashamed for having adopted a name, that you will start finger-pointing and bickering now that you've 'caused' the 'failure' of your film. He blames other things as well -- the title, the ads -- but that's fine. If one --ONE -- of you guys reads that column and takes it to heart I'll not sleep. You guys did an amazing thing this weekend -- and the exit polls showed how much you guys were out there, and how much business you dragged in with you. Not to mention everything you did for the months - sorry, YEARS -- before it opened. I'm crazy proud of you. Yes, there is an exclusionary element to some fandom that is inevitable, but this group has fought that as well or better as any, and maybe I'm a nerd, but being compared to a Trekker (or even a TrekkIE) doesn't offend me a bit.

We all know this remains an uphill battle. We all know that next weekend is crucial -- and a lot of it will rest on us. A lot will rest on the studio reaching people we can't. And factors we can't see coming. But I don't especially appreciate people calling Time of Death while I'm still operating. I don't like smug defeatism. And nobody disses the 'coats without me wading in. That's all.

The question remains: Did Early die out there in space, or did some passing ship show up at the last second? There's no answer yet, but I sure as hell know how I'd write it.

-j.

*link htp://browncoats.serenitymovie.com/serenity/index.html?fuseaction=forum.viewtopic&t=21505
#38
Quote:

Originally Posted by devincf

Can someone post the reply Joss had to the piece here? I am not registered at the browncoats board. Thanks.

Legless put it up in the Post-Release thread, Dev.
#39
Quote:

Originally Posted by kingcujoI

I think your entire post reads as "I'm mad about the fact that Serenity didn't make 30 million dollars. Devin posted something-it must be snarky and mean-ATTACK WHEDONITES!"

You don't have to say "I'm mad" for something to read that way. You see I am correctly inferring things from what you have posted. I am not reading what you say, ignoring it, and then posting what I want in a fit.

As far as that bit about Devin=My hero. I think you need to read these boards a bit more. I often disagree w/ Devin on many issues. The difference here is...I actually read the article, not just Devin's name on the author line. You saw that it was Devin and decided you were going to release frustration because...if it is from Devin it must be snarky.

Seriously if you want to discuss the article that is one thing. There is a lot of discussion to be generated about how Universal could have marketed this thing a whole lot better. Maybe it isn't too late for them to throw out some new adds and get some sustained box office. If Star Wars has taught us anything it is that throwing in variable advertising CAN reach different audiences.

If you don't like the critism don't dish it out. It is as simple as that. The fact that you choose to see reasonable critiscm as "mad" says a lot more about your bias then it does about fair consideration.

The point is...your post reads like I don't care what you say...Devin is right and therefore you are mad. I am only giving you back what you gave, albeit mine is tongue and check.

What I am discussing is that I agree that it was a good film and I agree with some of Devin's points, but this love in about blaming Firefly fans for Serenity's "lack of success is frankly without merit and ridiculous. I still have not seen one post that indicates how exactly this works.
#40
Did anyone really expect that Serenity would do well though? I don't know a single person in real life who watched the show when it was on or purchased the DVDs once they were out. The only people that I "know" that are interested in the series are here on CHUD.

I DO know that the Browncoats generally act like retards through stories told in other forums about their antics. Whether or not that influenced the BO I have no clue, but i am in no rush to see the series if this is what the general fanbase is like.
#41
Funny thing...Devin is right. Reading what Whedon just posted...along with Ainn-GRRRRRRR's shambled ramblings makes me less interested in seeing this movie again. How can under half a percentile of America's population prove to be so annoying?
#42
Quote:

Originally Posted by aine_grrr

I fail to see...when exactly were these "fans" alienating people. Were they rudely pushing in line, were they hording copies of Firefly, were they self-satisfied elitists, ... I don't think so. Just because there has been this huge fan back lash on CHUD and AICN does not mean that mainstream America was even aware of it.

Where exactly were the average American viewers hearing that Serenity "is huge, it's a cult phenomenon"? Almost all the people I know that aren't into film don't even know what Serenity is...movie or otherwise.

We're not talking about mainstream America being alienated. We're talking about a percentage of the already existing fanbase for genre films. People like myself, who, while not the biggest fans of Firefly, probably would've been interested in seeing Serenity simply because it's about spaceships. There is a significant contingent of people like me who were turned off by the venom spewed by lunatics like yourself and Anya, or the slavishly robotic antics of people like Woodward, or just the general air of holier-than-thou verbal acrobatics all centered around a goddamned television show. It's people like ME that Devin is referring to in that article. People that are otherwise big fans of sci-fi pictures, but felt pushed away by what they viewed as a ridiculous, rabid, and unpleasant fanbase. You're just illustrating the point again and again here, and it's tiresome. You refuse to actually read anything that anyone has said, and instead simply stick your fingers in your ears and go "LA LA LA LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING!".

The article didn't even MENTION mainstream America. It talked solely, in that ONE paragraph, about the existing genre fans' reactions to the "Browncoat Phenomenon". A lot of us are tired of the backlash we get when we dare to say even the remotest ill word towards Firefly, or towards Whedon. We're tired of watching an okay show being mystically raised to a level of near dieification. We're tired of dealing with people like you, who get so worked up over make believe people doing make believe things, that we (and I'd venture a guess that there's more of us than you think, PodBay. CHUD and AICN are far from the only websites on the internet) actively chose not to see the movie, because we no longer care, or have been so turned off by "Browncoats" that we actively DON'T want to see it.

And in this thread, you're pretty much proving the point.
#43
Quote:

Originally Posted by kingcujoI

Funny thing...Devin is right. Reading what Whedon just posted...along with Ainn-GRRRRRRR's shambled ramblings makes me less interested in seeing this movie again. How can under half a percentile of America's population prove to be so annoying?

How come it matters to you so much?
#44
Quote:

Originally Posted by aine_grrr

I fail to see...when exactly were these "fans" alienating people. Were they rudely pushing in line, were they hording copies of Firefly, were they self-satisfied elitists, ... I don't think so. Just because there has been this huge fan back lash on CHUD and AICN does not mean that mainstream America was even aware of it.

I'm not surprised you fail to see it. And, once again, we're not talking about mainstream America here. We're talking about how Serenity failed to even crossover to the broader SF market. A market that is fully aware of Joss Whedon and Firefly, yet still stayed at home this weekend.

There must be something in the franchise, in the realisation of it and in the perception of it that held it back.

And I don't believe it's entirely unreasonable to say that the attitude of die-hard Whedon/Firefly fans online , and in real life, is a contributing factor to this alienating of the wider SF audience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aine_grrr

Where exactly were the average American viewers hearing that Serenity "is huge, it's a cult phenomenon"? Almost all the people I know that aren't into film don't even know what Serenity is...movie or otherwise.

That would be the part in the trailer that says "the cult phenomenon hailed by critics". It's right here.
#45
Funny thing is, before reading the article, I had never even heard of the Browncoats. Isn't there such a thing as Losties now also? Strange. How long until there are Surface Dwellers, Thresholders, and Invasionacs? But then again, those shows are mediocre at best.
#46
Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent Helix

We're tired of dealing with people like you, who get so worked up over make believe people doing make believe things, that we (and I'd venture a guess that there's more of us than you think, PodBay. CHUD and AICN are far from the only websites on the internet) actively chose not to see the movie, because we no longer care, or have been so turned off by "Browncoats" that we actively DON'T want to see it.

But are there half a million of you (roughly the amount of people needed to make up the $5 million that Devin wrote was lost due to fandom)? I find that extraordinarily hard to believe.
#47
Quote:

Originally Posted by aine_grrr

How come it matters to you so much?

It doesn't. I didn't see this weekends box office and have to go in for a heart operation like a lot of people it seems.

You however, are proving Devin's point. Why do people rag on Star Trek so much? Well besides the decline in quality, the many denizens of Trek conventions are not the types of people "mainstream" America want to be identified with. Fair or not, the "mainstream" will avoid the films for this reason. This is an observation of society.

Basically you are preaching to the choir in regards to the quality of the film...a sequel would be great...I'm interested in the TV show...lets all have babies together and mix them up and then sell them.

But the point is you are reacting out of anger to a social observation that when tied in with Universal's advertising...makes sense.
#48
Quote:

That would be the part in the trailer that says "the cult phenomenon hailed by critics". It's right here.

Or the internet banner ads that said "Millions of fans can't be wrong."

Apparently they were.
#49
Quote:

Originally Posted by kingcujoI

But the point is you are reacting out of anger to a social observation that when tied in with Universal's advertising...makes sense.

That pretty much sums it up.
#50
It's impossible to deny that the insufferable attitude of people like Anya and aine-grrr is keeping a number of people away. I doubt the number is bigger than a couple thousand, though.

You can include me with the group that thought a "browncoat" was winter wear until late last week, and I'm on CHUD every day.
#51
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Sphinx

You can include me with the group that thought a "browncoat" was winter wear until late last week, and I'm on CHUD every day.

I thought it was a nasty sex term that I wasn't familiar with. I was curious, scared....and a little excited.
#52
Quote:

Originally Posted by PodBayDoor

It's not crazy, it's just very tunnel-visioned. It's taking the observations that you make in the online communities, that consist of a small-to-moderate percentage of a few thousand people who didn't like Serenity fandom to such an extent that they refused to see a film they would have otherwise seen, and projecting them onto half a million people. That seems to me to be just as self-important as the hardcore Browncoats are.

Which is why Devin listed it as one of several potential reasons for the poor box office. He never said "Everyone stayed away because of the fans!", and neither did I. But it's an interesting theory, and one that bears thinking about - not just in terms of Serenity but in terms of how internet fandom can help - or hinder - the perception of a franchise.
#53
Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent Helix

We're not talking about mainstream America being alienated. We're talking about a percentage of the already existing fanbase for genre films. People like myself, who, while not the biggest fans of Firefly, probably would've been interested in seeing Serenity simply because it's about spaceships. There is a significant contingent of people like me who were turned off by the venom spewed by lunatics like yourself and Anya, or the slavishly robotic antics of people like Woodward, or just the general air of holier-than-thou verbal acrobatics all centered around a goddamned television show. It's people like ME that Devin is referring to in that article. People that are otherwise big fans of sci-fi pictures, but felt pushed away by what they viewed as a ridiculous, rabid, and unpleasant fanbase. You're just illustrating the point again and again here, and it's tiresome. You refuse to actually read anything that anyone has said, and instead simply stick your fingers in your ears and go "LA LA LA LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING!".

The article didn't even MENTION mainstream America. It talked solely, in that ONE paragraph, about the existing genre fans' reactions to the "Browncoat Phenomenon". A lot of us are tired of the backlash we get when we dare to say even the remotest ill word towards Firefly, or towards Whedon. We're tired of watching an okay show being mystically raised to a level of near dieification. We're tired of dealing with people like you, who get so worked up over make believe people doing make believe things, that we (and I'd venture a guess that there's more of us than you think, PodBay. CHUD and AICN are far from the only websites on the internet) actively chose not to see the movie, because we no longer care, or have been so turned off by "Browncoats" that we actively DON'T want to see it.

I think that is the saddest thing you have said. You are not going to give a film a chance because you don't like the people that like a film. How lame is that?

Where is the venom? I hear venom from you…not from people that like Serenity.

Holier than thou…so strange that you attribute that to others and not this really odd argument that you won't see a movie because other people like them and you don't like those people. How limiting and sad is that?

You castigate me for not reading Devin's article but I did and my response clearly agrees with some of his points. So perhaps it is you that needs to read fully my response. But hey maybe it is easier just to be annoyed with me.

What does people like me mean? I have not been even writing or reading the Serenity threads. I went in spoiler free. Second of all why do you even care what other people think about a film, don't you have the ability to make up your own mind without being influenced by people that are seriously interested in a film or movie.

Perhaps you are more concerned with feeling like you are superior to the rest of us.
#54
Quote:

Originally Posted by Werbal_Kint

Or the internet banner ads that said "Millions of fans can't be wrong."

Apparently they were.

My point exactly...middle American did not see these advertisements.
#55
Quote:

Originally Posted by aine_grrr

What does people like me mean?

I think he means your attack of opinions based on someone's perfectly valid observations, and your continual reinforcement of your stance and going around in circles when you're clearly being owned by everyone who's posted a rebuttal. Y'know, like this thread.
#56
Quote:

Originally Posted by aine_grrr

My point exactly...middle American did not see these advertisements.

Why? Middle Americans don't go on the internet?
#57
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fett

Why? Middle Americans don't go on the internet?

Everyone in middle American picks corn and eats tractors, don't you know?

I actually saw several Serenity ads on ESPN.com. This movie was NOT just advertised on fanboy sites.
#58
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Whitehead

Which is why Devin listed it as one of several potential reasons for the poor box office. He never said "Everyone stayed away because of the fans!", and neither did I. But it's an interesting theory, and one that bears thinking about - not just in terms of Serenity but in terms of how internet fandom can help - or hinder - the perception of a franchise.

To be fair, Devin specifically said that rabid fans cost the movie $5 million. I think that's a pretty ridiculous statement, personally.

And, again, I'm not saying that the things people are saying about Serenity fandom aren't true. I'm saying their effect on the box office was negligible, at best. Movie sites just don't carry that much cache, and their message boards even less. If the opposite was true, Shaun of the Dead would have opened to more than $3 million.
#59
Quote:

Originally Posted by aine_grrr

My point exactly...middle American did not see these advertisements.

Last I checked Middle America still got most of the regular network stations. I hear they even have cable in Arkansas now! The ads were there....they were the wrong ads. Could you imagine how well this film would have done with an advertising scheme similar to Blair Witch? I'm not saying you replicate that step for step. I am saying using the idea of the suspense and the relatively unknown fantastic world of the film would have been better than saying "These other cats like it...its a phenom...what? You a soccer mom and haven't heard of it? Well these people have...you have to see it!."
#60
SHAUN OF THE DEAD has no comparisons whatsoever. It had a built-in fanbase of about six people.
#61
Quote:

Originally Posted by aine_grrr

I think that is the saddest thing you have said. You are not going to give a film a chance because you don't like the people that like a film. How lame is that?

Where is the venom? I hear venom from you…not from people that like Serenity.

Holier than thou…so strange that you attribute that to others and not this really odd argument that you won't see a movie because other people like them and you don't like those people. How limiting and sad is that?

You castigate me for not reading Devin's article but I did and my response clearly agrees with some of his points. So perhaps it is you that needs to read fully my response. But hey maybe it is easier just to be annoyed with me.

What does people like me mean? I have not been even writing or reading the Serenity threads. I went in spoiler free. Second of all why do you even care what other people think about a film, don't you have the ability to make up your own mind without being influenced by people that are seriously interested in a film or movie.

Perhaps you are more concerned with feeling like you are superior to the rest of us.

Christ allmighty, you're dense.
#62
I do think Ain_grr did raise a valid argument. Why would someone not watch something because of it's fanbase? I can kind of understand not wanting to be associated with the fanbase, but really, they dont take your name and number when you buy a ticket and list you online as a "Browncoat". It makes even less sense to me if you watched Firefly and liked it. If you were a big fan of Lost, would you quit watching because of the "Losties". Probably not. Because it's a good show (debatable). Or is it because you feel safe in knowing millions of others watch it, and have no association with "Losties". I don't know. That whole arguement just seems weird to me.
#63
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fett

I think he means your attack of opinions based on someone's perfectly valid observations, and your continual reinforcement of your stance and going around in circles when you're clearly being owned by everyone who's posted a rebuttal. Y'know, like this thread.

I have yet to read any valid way a fan may have hurt the movie.

Well if I am going in circles....then you are too...I am at least providing substantial criticism.

I think people on this board don't realize how the average American learns about film. It is not by coming to CHUD. Furthermore advertising in middle-American was limited for Serenity. This is a valid and reasonable observation.
#64
Quote:

Originally Posted by PodBayDoor

And, again, I'm not saying that the things people are saying about Serenity fandom aren't true. I'm saying their effect on the box office was negligible, at best. Movie sites just don't carry that much cache, and their message boards even less. If the opposite was true, Shaun of the Dead would have opened to more than $3 million.

And more than 5 screens. I


f Universal was going to go the "You have to see it because the other millions have" then they should have pushed this thing past Flight Plan per screen count. When Joehandinhispants walks up to the front of the movie line and sees 4 screens playing Serenity that is only going to reinforce that advertising. Of course this was a crowded as fudge weekend. I did manage to see both History and Serenity though.
#65
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fett

SHAUN OF THE DEAD has no comparisons whatsoever. It had a built-in fanbase of about six people.

I don't think there is such a thing as a built-in fanbase that just loves spaceship movies. I mean, Red Planet opened to like 7 million, and that had nerd-goddess-du-jour in it.

Fact is, the movie's marketing did not work. I think it was crappy marketing, but I also think that the marketing department had a difficult job, for some of the reasons Devin mentioned and some he didn't.
#66
Quote:

Originally Posted by aine_grrr

I have yet to read any valid way a fan may have hurt the movie.

Well if I am going in circles....then you are too...I am at least providing substantial criticism.

I think people on this board don't realize how the average American learns about film. It is not by coming to CHUD. Furthermore advertising in middle-American was limited for Serenity. This is a valid and reasonable observation.

Don't they have trailers in middle America? The way you're describing it, it's like they're a bunch of Hobbits sitting around eating cake and playing with mud.
#67
You know what's funny? I just re-read Devin's missive, and the majority of it the piece expresses disappointment and confusion as to why it failed (relatively speaking). It's certainly not a "hate bomb" (except perhaps in relation to all the love Whedon has previously received on the site), and the knee-jerk response from die-hard fans is pretty telling.
#68
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fett

Don't they have trailers in middle America? The way you're describing it, it's like they're a bunch of Hobbits sitting around eating cake and playing with mud.

I see probably 5 to 6 movies a week. I did not see even one Serenity trailer.
#69
Damn this thread is going in circles. Firefly fans vs Firefly haters...I think I've seen this before!
#70
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalyn

I do think Ain_grr did raise a valid argument. Why would someone not watch something because of it's fanbase? I can kind of understand not wanting to be associated with the fanbase, but really, they dont take your name and number when you buy a ticket and list you online as a "Browncoat". It makes even less sense to me if you watched Firefly and liked it. If you were a big fan of Lost, would you quit watching because of the "Losties". Probably not. Because it's a good show (debatable). Or is it because you feel safe in knowing millions of others watch it, and have no association with "Losties". I don't know. That whole arguement just seems weird to me.

Here's how it works. I wasn't a huge fan of Firefly. I thought most of it was mediocre, with some good flashes here and there. I MIGHT have been interested in the movie. Have you ever had a friend who was really into something that you weren't all that hot on? And they just wouldn't shut up about it? The more they yammered on, the more impassioned and indignant they got, the more the flaws you already perceived in the product got bigger and more visible. That's how it is with Firefly. The more someone like Anya attacks people here at CHUD, or the more Woodward treats every word that falls from Joss Whedon's mouth like the Gospel, the more ninnies like that come forth to proclaim from on high how great it is and how you're stupid if you don't like it, the more people like me, on the fringe who could've been swayed one way or the other, start to just think, "Y'know, if THESE people are really into it, it's probably not something I want to waste my money on." It's as simple as that. The rabid fan-base IS a turnoff to fence-sitters like myself. I wasn't out there proclaiming that Firefly sucks at every opportunity, I just wasn't into it. But I am into movies about spaceships. So chances are, if left to my own devices, I would've gone to see Serenity. Maybe not opening day, but I probably would've checked out a matinee. But my experience was already soiled. Before one frame of film was shown, I already had a bad taste in my mouth. That's what happens. It's not that difficult a concept to grasp. It doesn't make me superior or inferior. It just makes me not interested in seeing a movie anymore.


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