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- huntertarantino - 11-21-2017

Nice riff on the desert showdown in Lethal Weapon in episode 12.




- huntertarantino - 11-21-2017

Jesus with the death visions! I love Twin Peaks, but this isn't Twin Peaks!




- huntertarantino - 11-21-2017

Rawlins getting turned into a Fangoria glamour shot.



OH MY.



Marvel: you can't say the f-word, but you can make The Sopranos and Sons of Anarchy look like Nickelodeon sitcoms!




- farsight - 11-22-2017

Just finished it, and I found it to be one of the better Marvel shows. It's paced better than most of them, and seems to know where it's trying to go from episode one. I thought most of the plot and character beats landed, and didn't wish I had skipped the middle 7 episodes, so that's a lot better than the Marvel average.



But I don't think Frank Castle is a good fit for a TV series. He's a drag as a protagonist. The other characters were drawn well enough to keep my interest, rooting for some to live and some to die, but it's hard to make a great show about The Punisher when even The Punisher doesn't care what happens to The Punisher.



And I'll second the confusion about Netflix's censorship standards. Its some bizarre logic that says that you can't have nudity, but can have repeated lengthy scenes of simulated sex. I mean, your show has grinding and thrusting, plus countless scenes of people being being turned to pulp, but the topless woman has to clamp her hand over her boobs and the naked guy has to stand behind furniture? It's juvenile and distracting. If you're making an adult show, make an adult show. Don't be weird, Netflix.



As for the ending...



That was seriously comical comic-y contortionist shtick they did to get to where they wanted a season two to start.

LaDahni (sp?) lets Frank go? Come the fuck on. Then she shows up at the end and instantly takes a bullet like the chumpiest chump that ever chumped? Damn, that's a one-two in character destruction.


Then I can allllmost buy the government letting Castle walk to preserve their narrative... but he just stays in New York, able to attend his buddy's support group? GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE, SHOW! He was wanted for 40+ murders, and temporarily suspected of being a terrorist bomber, with his face leading every newscast (probably nationally, if not internationally).


Narratively and in terms of character arc, he should've died. But if you want to end with Frank getting a pass to let him be around for future shows, you can't make him the most recognizable face in America first.


The ending is one of the reasons comic book superhero shows rarely rise above "mildly entertaining" for me. The decades-long stories they're based on often play out more like daytime soap operas than serious entertainment.


So overall, a moderate thumbs-up with the caveat that I really don't think we need a season two.




- cylon baby - 11-22-2017

I finished this today as well, and mostly agree with you (Farsight).



I do like how they developed Russo from a two faced weasly heel into a real threat (and he has a great scene with the crippled vet in the last episode...outstanding acting there).



But deciding to make the most awkward scene in Munich the recurring dream sequence for Frank was....unfortunate.



More unfortunate was making Frank an empathetic "normal" guy who then goes all Punisher but only under certain circumstances. By making the season an extension of his origin in Daredevil they will now force the need to give Frank a new mission for every future appearance.



Integral to the Punisher comic character is that he's deranged, or Woke (depending on one's point of view) and is compelled to punish ALL crimminals. His "mission" is eternal.


Also by my estimation Frank got shot 1-3 times per episode, and received deep stab wounds at least once every other episode. So either he has Wolvervine like healing powers or the episodes take place like a year apart, giving him time to heal. That's the trouble with the whole "grounded" approach: it makes you think about things like that.



But Berthal IS Frank Castle, shitty taste in music aside. The other characters are pretty good to great in their roles as well.



As for Ties in to the larger MCU-TVerse, it was nice to see Karen Page and Turk, but I could have used at least a cameo by Rosario Dawson (really expected Micro to take Frank to her to get fixed up) or Matt Murdoch.




- cylon baby - 11-22-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterTarantino View Post
 

Rawlins getting turned into a Fangoria glamour shot.



OH MY.



Marvel: you can't say the f-word, but you can make The Sopranos and Sons of Anarchy look like Nickelodeon sitcoms!



What I like about that, and the final battle with Russo/Jigsaw, is that the fights aren't fist pumping events. Much as I wanted Rawlins and Russo to "get Punished", both fights were damn brutal. 

Which is really bold: the appeal of the Punisher is, as mentioned above, in the comics he's Jason Voorhees and the crooks are the teenagers at Crystal Lake. That is too obvious to miss, so the showrunners made the choice to go into a much darker place, were we question what Frank's doing, even as we have to acknowledge that the victems "have it coming to 'em".



All the Slow Scenes (basically every scene set in the Homeland Security office) I think are meant to convey the boredom between battles that characterize war. But experiencing that as a viewer is just boredom itself. It was a good idea, (esp the lack of music for those scenes), but needed something (don't know what) to make it work.




- huntertarantino - 11-23-2017

It all comes down to this: The Punisher is a singular character. He doesn't want help. He doesn't need help. If he is the focus, he needs to be the focus, not Madani or Micro's family or whoever.



Granted, putting Bernthal's take on Castle in the twisted, Grand Guignol world that Ennis created would've created a very uneven contrast. The ambition to confront military PTSD and government intelligence corruption is noble. It fits. The problem is that those scenes with the VA group and much of the DHS procedural stuff doesn't involve Castle actively enough. They mention him, but he's not as integral as he was when Rawlins and O'Brien had to go deal with him in the MAX series, or when Nick Fury is trying to drill his S.H.I.E.L.D. baggage into taxpayer territory. Ergo, any time they go to the supporting characters, it sucks the energy out of the show. At least with Daredevil, you got Matt Murdock in the mix for a solid effort to make some kind of Lumet-esque procedural.



Here's the thing: this is commenting on their ambitions in a near-bygone era. Veteran neglect and distrust in the government are very different in Trump-era America. This is commenting on remnants of Obama fixing Bush's messes.



I think Rawlins' fate in the show (which was so insane it'd make Verhoeven puke) was straight out of the comics. I always go back to The Slavers, but that one and the Barracuda arcs are filled with brutality and/or gross-out moments on the level of what they did there. I couldn't believe how far they pushed that.



The buildup to Russo going full crazy was slow, but it pays off in the last episode when it becomes a gritty version of the climactic Matrix/Bennett knife fight in Commando. Again, it's not glamorous. That's fine.



What is great in the show resonates, especially Bernthal (who may have overtaken D'Onofrio as the best actor to be in Marvel's TV stuff), but the disregard for cohesion hurts it profoundly.



I would love to see Season 2 be a spin on Up is Down, Black is White with Jigsaw and ANVIL overseeing the desecration of the Castle family remains. One of my top arcs.



I'd also love to see Micro get darker, as....



Ennis doesn't give a shit about him, and at the end of the first arc of the MAX run, Micro has helped the mobsters and Castle blows his brains out. MCU already denied me a Matt Fraction-style Hawkeye who smartasses against the Tracksuit Dracula Bros with Kate Bishop.



- stelios - 11-23-2017

AI'm on episode ten. If that mumbling runt isn't horribly dead by the end of the episode I'll fucking stop.

In a series with many, many lame side characters Lewis is by far the worst.


- Overlord - 11-25-2017

AOne episode in, so haven't read the thread yet.

I disagree with essentially every single creative decision that was made in the first episode.


- cylon baby - 11-25-2017

Elucidate.




- Neil Spurn - 11-26-2017

Jesus fuck you guys are a bunch of negative nancies. This show is quite entertaining. It stays true to the character* and populates his world with interesting side characters that certainly engaged me enough to, for the most part, follow. Was Madani ultimately silly? Yes. Did I care that much about Micro's family? Noe. Did these let downs affect my ability to enjoy the show? Certainly not.



* Well, except for the end, where...


Frank conveniently gets away with dozens of murders and accusations of terrorism to, conveniently, aid in the government cover up. Okay, fine, I'll make that leap. But then, then, when he's the most wanted man in New York, his face plastered everywhere, said cover up doesn't work so well when you show up at a vets' group therapy session. Like no one there is going to go home and tell their spouse "Holy shit!! The Punsher was at group tonight!"



Also, fuck you for having Frank Castle be in group therapy. Srsly.




But really, what would you prefer? More Iron Fist? Because you''ll get that. damn you. You'll get that for not liking Punisher more!!!




- amos orange - 11-26-2017

Just finished the show, and I'd place it even with Daredevil Season 2 in terms of quality, if not barely ahead.



I have nothing further to add but HOLY COW do the characters get smeared in each other's blood in this show. Like, in each other's mouthes and shit.




- Overlord - 11-26-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
 

Elucidate.



I'm kind of afraid to.  For all I know, the rest of the show is a triumph.  I could literally type a multi page essay of everything I was wrong about Episode 1.  However, I'll summarize:



1.)They seem to have forgotten that they already had a full-fledged origin/arc in D2.  And it was awesome.



2.)They seem to have forgotten that Punisher was awesome in D2, in part, because he was basically a fully fledged character from the get-go.  I don't need a quasi Punisher Begins.  Or Begins anew.  Whatever.



3.)The way he handled the "innocent" guy stuck in the concrete was a misfire given what we know of the character.



4.)Punisher is supposed to be smarter.  More tactical.  Instead, he acts like a fucking idiot when confronting armed individuals with a sledgehammer.



5.)He's totally recognizable with a beard.  Are you fucking kidding me?  If a show ever reminds me of the season finale of Dexter, it has failed.  Do they not have the budget to film somewhere besides New York?



6.)I don't need a conflicted/retired Punisher.  There's plenty of other comic book characters who can carry that burden.  Castle has made his choice, he doesn't waver.  He's like Rorschach.



7.)The fact that they gloss over his revenge with a two minute series of flashbacks tells me they maybe don't know what kind of story we want to see, or are maybe afraid to tell that story.




- huntertarantino - 11-26-2017

I agree with #3, but holy hell just stick with it to see episodes 11-13. Utter carnage.




- MrSaxon - 11-26-2017

I guarantee Overlord won't make it through episodes 2 - 10 if he didn't like the first episode.




- huntertarantino - 11-26-2017

Oh, no disagreement there. You could skip them, though, and go with things happen, forget that, just go to where shit gets violent.




- ska oreo - 11-26-2017

I dunno, I think it's sorta weird that people were all for a version that's more intune with Ennis' interpretation of the character...and then balk at an adaptation that's probably the closest we'll ever get to Punisher Max.



A lot of this stuff you guys are complaining about the show, is definitely in Ennis' comic.




- Evi - 11-26-2017

What's up with the snivelling, cowardly anti-gun politician in episode 9? Was that the show's attempt at seriously taking on the gun debate? Because it was fucking weird.




- MrSaxon - 11-26-2017

I'm honestly surprised he doesn't come back in the finale and start blowing bad guys away alongside Frank.




- flint - 11-26-2017

Just finished this. Surprised at the ambivalence. I quite enjoyed myself here. Sure, there were some draggy moments, but some epic shootouts.


Much as I hated the Lewis subplot, I did enjoy the Rashomon style retelling of the hotel gunfight... the whole 'when you told me to pull the white wire' and 'i bet you can name every item in that handbag' too. I loved the ending of the episode where the televisions are blaring out that 'the Punisher is alive'... that got me grinning. The siege in Micro's basement, the carousel fight... just lots of Punisher goodness.



 

There was more than enough good here for me to tolerate some of the draggy bits. Sure, the ending was a bit off:



 Punisher in group therapy? Really?


but overall, I rank this above the other NetFlix's apart from DD and JJ.




- stelios - 11-26-2017

Quote:

but overall, I rank this above the other NetFlix's apart from DD and JJ.



Absolutely.



And yeah, the way Frank ended up got me literally saying "what the fuck?" out loud. I'd be less weirded out if he'd move to LA like Paul Kersey.




- Overlord - 11-26-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by millennium1 View Post
 

You're right.  Jon Bernthal didn't even attempt to bulk up for the role.  He just signed up and said "Where do I shift my eyes like I'm coming down from a meth binge?"



He and Loras Tyrell have had years now.  No excuse.



Bulk the fuck up.




- sirjonsnow - 11-28-2017

If you guys didn't fast-forward through the "FBI" scenes you might realize there's not a single FBI agent in this series.  Anyway, I loved it, even the slow parts.




- bradito - 11-28-2017

AI revisited Punisher War Zone last weekend because this show is taking too long to go anywhere. Most episodes feel like they have 10 minutes of actual story blown up to 55 minutes of show.


- cylon baby - 11-29-2017

I ended up liking this overall, yet I look back wistfully at the first appearance of The Punisher in the Marvel Netflixverse:






- Overlord - 11-29-2017

A[quote name="Cylon Baby" url="/community/t/155441/the-punisher-netflix/330#post_4414811"]I ended up liking this overall, yet I look back wistfully at the first appearance of The Punisher in the Marvel Netflixverse:



[/quote]

That perp had a grandmother and gave people sandwiches. Why was the Punished trying to kill.him instead of rewarding him with a bag of stolen cash?


- kyle reese - 11-29-2017

A[quote name="sirjonsnow" url="/community/t/155441/the-punisher-netflix/330#post_4414773"]If you guys didn't fast-forward through the "FBI" scenes you might realize there's not a single FBI agent in this series.  Anyway, I loved it, even the slow parts.
[/quote]

Department of Fish and Wildlife, right? My mistake.


- Overlord - 11-29-2017

Just finished episode two.  About halfway through episode 3.



That 60 year old desk jockey really put up a hell of a fight against someone that went toe to toe with Daredevil.  I'm loving these episodes of just about nothing except dialogue or angsty Frank, punctuated by bits of violence here and there.



Super great writing to have Behrooz's Mother's Daughter's idiot partner say "I never liked the guy, blah blah blah" while observing his boss's murdered corpse in front of about 10 co-workers.  Super great writing.  That's just how I would expect anyone in law enforcement or the military to behave.  To insult a guy's memory with his blood coagulating in front of all the people who are supposed to have each other's backs.



Woll looks good.  Nice job with the camera angles to make sure she never looks taller than all her male co-stars.




- stelios - 11-29-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overlord View Post
 

That 60 year old desk jockey really put up a hell of a fight against someone that went toe to toe with Daredevil.  I'm loving these episodes of just about nothing except dialogue or angsty Frank, punctuated by bits of violence here and there.




You mean against the human wreck that spent the previous hours getting beat to shit, shot and stabbed? A paraplegic, kinda mean 13 year old should have been able to beat Frank if we're trying to be realistic.




- Overlord - 12-03-2017

AGood Lord baby Jesus, how much more time are we going to spend on micro's family?


- Overlord - 12-03-2017

ADoesn't feel like same character from Daredevil. Was none of the creative team retained?


- mongycore - 12-03-2017

AIt took me a week just to get through episode 3. What a meandering pile of shit. Is the whole season like this?

Don't care about hacker guy. Don't care about Investigator Lady. Investigator Lady's mom makes me miss The Expanse, fuck it I'm just going to rewatch The Expanse.

Haha, look at Frank go limp, the pen is mightier than the meh, don't care.

And fuck off lady, I'm trying to sleep here....after awhile I welcomed the image of her melon being exploded on the wall by gunfire.


- Overlord - 12-03-2017

AWell said.

Meandering and boring.


- Overlord - 12-03-2017

You know what this show needs?  MOAR WIFE FLASHBACKS!!!  Particularly as she is such an interesting and well-fleshed out character in Frank's nightmarish recurring reminiscing.



Ben Barnes was in an elite military unit?  Uh huh.  If he put some muscle on he might be convincing as a hipster barista.



**Never thought I'd use this phrase non-ironically, but Marvel's asinine internal censorship standards for these shows, particularly language (The "freakin" Punisher ... are you kidding me?) and nudity can get to fuck.  Make an adult show, go with it, and embrace the content that the thematic subject implies.




- huntertarantino - 12-03-2017

Even though this thing throws the gloves off in the last three eps, both seasons of Daredevil are more consistently violent than this is.