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- Overlord - 12-03-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterTarantino View Post
 

Even though this thing throws the gloves off in the last three eps, both seasons of Daredevil are more consistently violent than this is.



There has been little of the scope of violence I expected as I near the halfway mark.  There have been single episodes of network television shows that have both been more violent (24 comes to mind) and more bloody (Hannibal) than everything I have seen so far in Punisher, combined.  The Punisher's rampage through the hospital in DD Season One was more morally questionable and potentially offensive to the viewer's sensibilities than anything I have seen thus far by an order of magnitude.



The creative team behind the Punisher clearly were uncomfortable portraying certain aspects of the character.  Not just his origin in the comics, but the actual character who was in Daredevil Season 2.  That's fine.  There are many things about the Punisher that people should find disturbing.  Just like there are plenty of things about the portrayals of Harry Callahan (Dirty Harry) or Paul Kersey (Death Wish) that people probably should find questionable/unsettling.  There's nothing wrong with that.



You just shouldn't be put in charge of the Punisher television show if you don't want to coherently continue an already-existing character's story.




- chaz - 12-03-2017

I watched the first three episodes last night. As its been said before this show is slow paced and could get back on the dream sequences with the wife. That said it has kept me interested enough to keep watching.




- cylon baby - 12-03-2017

They lean way too hard on the Dream Wife stuff. I think the showrunner's felt they had to keep bringing that up so we'd find Frank Castle sympathetic (I notice they drop the brain trauma aspect from DD S2), avoiding the intrinsic appeal of the character.



I wish they'd leaned right into the whole Murderous Vigilante Vs. Really Vicious Thugs Vs. Heroes Who Don't Kill thing.



Really wonder if this gets a Season 2 and if so, how they end up justifying Castle going on another murder spree (do thugs kill Micro? Ugh).




- Overlord - 12-04-2017

After a pretty epic two days of binging, just finished up the season.  Collection of random thoughts, conclusions, and questions below:



--Required viewing:  Episode 1.  Interrogation from Episode 2.  Everything from roughly halfway through episode 10ish to the very end.  In between?  Uhh. .... a five minute summarization would be pretty effective.  I would be hard-pressed to say that there was more than an episode or two of "must-watch" content between episodes two and 10ish.



--At least it ended great!  Woke up from my half doze and was riveted for the final 3-4 episodes.  Yay!  This could have easily just been an "A" miniseries, instead of a "B minus" 13 episodes.  Most of the homeland security stuff (if not all), most of the stuff involving Micro's family, the PTSD/coming home stuff.  Needless.  Redundant.  You know what else they can excise???



--The motherfucking flashbacks.  We get it.  EVERYONE WATCHING THIS SHOW TOTALLY, COMPLETELY GETS IT.  When I stood up from my computer chair to take a piss while writing this post, my chair started to spin a little bit.  I immediately flash-backed to Frank's wife and children on the carousel before they were horribly gunned down.  I'm pretty sure when I close my eyes tonight after my head hits the pillow, Frank's wife is going to appear before me in an ephemeral vision.  They need to put a big glass jar in the writing room next season.  Any time a writer turns in any pages that contain a flashback (or even are flashback-esque), or verbally suggests a flashback, that writer needs to be punched until a tooth comes loose that they can toss into the jar.



---With perhaps two minutes of content revised, this show could be a prequel to The Punisher's appearance in DD2.  And you know what?  That might have worked better.  Because it is difficult to jibe Frank's appearance in DD2 with his quasi ret-conned storyline here.



--That final scene with the glass.   Yeesh.  There was some supremely visceral shit in this show.  Anus puckering, squint your eyes, visceral stuff.  Why'd it feel like they were holding back most of the season?



--Frank should have killed the arms dealer and the sandwich guy with the grandma.  Not because it's "right," but because that's the established character.  I get that they want the bad guys to be politically safe targets like traitorous military-industrial complex types, but if this character returns they need to consider that well fully and completely dry.



--Since it ended on such a high note, I will forgive periodic wonky gun-play choreography from highly trained operatives.  I also imagine that the budget might not be able to support things like long-range tactics or thermal imaging scopes (which, for a nighttime scene, would be an automatic add for Frank Castle).



--But what's harder to forgive is Behrooz's mother's daughter surviving a shot to the face with no explanation.  C'mon ... does she have super powers?  Just put her in a vest or have it bounce off a cell phone or something.



--I can't say I'm unhappy having watched it, because I really loved the final 3-4 episodes, and getting some more Punisher turned out to be a good thing.  There just isn't 13 episodes of material here.  The season feels fractured and takes way too long to get going.  Plus, they had a bunch of episodes and storylines that thematically don't fit The Punisher.  But, I'll take a show with a wandering and flabby middle, but a kick-ass ending, as opposed to the reverse.




- Overlord - 12-04-2017

One more things:  The hipster jokes?  A+++++++




- Codename - 12-04-2017

I still haven't finished this. It's proven to be a surprisingly disappointing slog to get through. Which bums me the fuck out. I assume there will be some Punishing in this Punisher show.



Agent Madani is hotter than the surface of the sun though. Good god...




- cylon baby - 12-04-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overlord View Post
 

One more things:  The hipster jokes?  A+++++++


Yes in S2 The Punisher should just go around killing Hipsters. Because they deserve it.



Also, I'm starting an online petition to give Overlord a movie/series review column on CHUD.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Codename View Post
 


Agent Madani is hotter than the surface of the sun though. Good god...



She is, but I couldn't help realizing that her body type is designed (?) to show off clothes. Also that she maybe weighs 60 pounds, but is shown in hand to hand combat with men weighing 200+ of muscle. Also she can handle firing a shotgun without any trouble. Also she can take a bullet to the head and be OK.




- amos orange - 12-04-2017

AHipster is a tired word rendered meaningless from overuse.

In this show it means “a guy with a beard”, which in 2017 is roughly half the male population.


- Overlord - 12-04-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

Also, I'm starting an online petition to give Overlord a movie/series review column on CHUD.



She is, but I couldn't help realizing that her body type is designed (?) to show off clothes. Also that she maybe weighs 60 pounds, but is shown in hand to hand combat with men weighing 200+ of muscle. Also she can handle firing a shotgun without any trouble. Also she can take a bullet to the head and be OK.



I offered a loooong time ago.  No interest from the powers-that-be.



I actually started wondering if she had super powers and checked for comic book origins online.  It would have made a lot of what we saw from her character make sense.




- subotai - 12-04-2017

AIf Bernthal was going to get in fighting shape for one project this year, I'm glad it was Shot Caller.


- chaz - 12-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
 

Yes in S2 The Punisher should just go around killing Hipsters. Because they deserve it.




I can show you something along those lines.





- Overlord - 12-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amos Orange View Post

Hipster is a tired word rendered meaningless from overuse.

In this show it means “a guy with a beard”, which in 2017 is roughly half the male population.


That sounds suspiciously like hipster talk to me ...




- chaz - 12-06-2017

 I started episode 4 or 5 last night and I realized I don't care about the love triangle between Frank, Mirco and Mirco's wife; nor do I care about Mirco's asshole son. I guess if I want to watch people get shot in a myriad of ways, I go watch Desperado.




- huntertarantino - 12-06-2017

ATom Arnold should’ve been Micro.


- catartik - 12-06-2017

AI only made it through the first episode of this by sheer will.

I can’t imagine watching 12 more episodes.

I commend the fortitude you guys have.


- Overlord - 12-06-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by catartik View Post

I only made it through the first episode of this by sheer will.

I can’t imagine watching 12 more episodes.

I commend the fortitude you guys have.


It was very difficult.



My review, above, I really stand by.  Force yourself to watch the first episode (I thought it sucked).  Watch the 5 minute interrogation scene towards the end in episode 2.  Then skip ahead to episode 10.  You can read a synopsis and miss nothing enjoyable.  The "soldier coming home," Micro's family shenanigans," "Behrooz's Mother's Daughter's Law Enforcement Efforts," and Frank's fetch quest missions are fucking terrible.



Beginning around halfway through episode 10 it is excellent until the end.  It is a pity that the first 2/3rds of the season are such a painful slog.




- superlaser - 12-06-2017

A[quote name="Overlord" url="/community/t/155441/the-punisher-netflix/350_50#post_4421488"]
It was very difficult.

My review, above, I really stand by.  Force yourself to watch the first episode (I thought it sucked).  Watch the 5 minute interrogation scene towards the end in episode 2.  Then skip ahead to episode 10.  You can read a synopsis and miss nothing enjoyable.  The "soldier coming home," Micro's family shenanigans," "Behrooz's Mother's Daughter's Law Enforcement Efforts," and Frank's fetch quest missions are fucking terrible. 

Beginning around halfway through episode 10 it is excellent until the end.  It is a pity that the first 2/3rds of the season are such a painful slog.  
[/quote]
The episode 5 forest shootout is also worth including in there, IMO. Not essential but too good a set piece to leave out.


- Overlord - 12-06-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by superlaser View Post


The episode 5 forest shootout is also worth including in there, IMO. Not essential but too good a set piece to leave out.


Ehhhh................fetch quest to advance the main storyline mission.




- ska oreo - 12-07-2017

AJeez guys, I'm not trying to be condescending, but if all you wanted was Punisher Warzone, why not just watch Punisher Warzone?

I'm towards the back half of the series and so far, with the exception of two episodes, I found this to be one of Netflix's strongest outings. I just generally like the slower pace to the show that wants to be more than just WHO IS CASTLE GONNA SHOOT NEXT! That's boring, dull show that's lose its steam long before its season finale.

The Punisher allows its characters to breaaaath without focusing on plot plot plot plot. And by holding back, it actually makes the violence hit far harder. Because emotions and stuff like that.


- cylon baby - 12-07-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ska Oreo View Post



The Punisher allows its characters to breaaaath without focusing on plot plot plot plot. And by holding back, it actually makes the violence hit far harder. Because emotions and stuff like that.


The problem is too many of those characters are boring and dumb. Like Homeland Security woman and for most of the series, Jigsaw.



By the way, I wonder if Jigsaw is lying right next to Luke Cage's brother, who is also in a coma whilst being mutated by that crazy Prison Doc?




- ska oreo - 12-07-2017

A[quote name="Cylon Baby" url="/community/t/155441/the-punisher-netflix/350#post_4421725"]
The problem is too many of those characters are boring and dumb. Like Homeland Security woman and for most of the series, Jigsaw.

By the way, I wonder if Jigsaw is lying right next to Luke Cage's brother, who is also in a coma whilst being mutated by that crazy Prison Doc?
[/quote]

Why were they dumb?


- slim - 12-07-2017

A[quote name="Ska Oreo" url="/community/t/155441/the-punisher-netflix/350#post_4421724"]Jeez guys, I'm not trying to be condescending, but if all you wanted was Punisher Warzone, why not just watch Punisher Warzone?

I'm towards the back half of the series and so far, with the exception of two episodes, I found this to be one of Netflix's strongest outings. I just generally like the slower pace to the show that wants to be more than just WHO IS CASTLE GONNA SHOOT NEXT! That's boring, dull show that's lose its steam long before its season finale.

The Punisher allows its characters to breaaaath without focusing on plot plot plot plot. And by holding back, it actually makes the violence hit far harder. Because emotions and stuff like that.[/quote]


Stipulating that this could have stood cutting an episode or two like all the Marvel Netflix shows, I largely agree. Overall I thought it was a good synthesis of the 80s Micro/battlevan and Ennis eras of the comics, and tweaking Frank's character and mission enough so that he's not just a one-note murderbot shooting up a crack den every episode. I guess the pace didn't bother me as much because I ended up liking this version of Micro more than I thought I would, and found the procedural element and veteran subplot-- and how those last two tied together in episode 10 especially-- interesting enough to keep me watching till the real punishng started.

There's probably a more War Zone-esque version of this show that coul be done, and I'd be on board with that too. But this is in line with the tone these series have taken for better or worse, and going with this more "thoughtful" approach was probably the right move for a first season. With Jigsaw and maybe Barracuda or somebody down the road, I could see the taking the gloves off later. For now I'd put this alongside DD season 2,-- which I also liked more than a lot of people, I think.


- Overlord - 12-07-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ska Oreo View Post

Jeez guys, I'm not trying to be condescending, but if all you wanted was Punisher Warzone, why not just watch Punisher Warzone?


Don't want Punisher: Warzone.  Want Punisher in line with what we saw in DD2.  None of that requires umpteen flashbacks, a retcon of his family's murder so we can have yet another military complex betrayal storyline, or a meandering tale of Micro's family and his wife's loneliness or the travails of returning veterans.  More Punisher from DD2, please.



Quote:
I'm towards the back half of the series and so far, with the exception of two episodes, I found this to be one of Netflix's strongest outings. I just generally like the slower pace to the show that wants to be more than just WHO IS CASTLE GONNA SHOOT NEXT! That's boring, dull show that's lose its steam long before its season finale.


 Kind of echoing many of our points that the Punisher we saw in DD2 maybe doesn't require a 13 episode run of his own show?



If you like the slower pace, fair enough.  Most found it boring.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim View Post

...... I ended up liking this version of Micro more than I thought I would, and found the procedural element and veteran subplot-- and how those last two tied together in episode 10 especially-- interesting enough to keep me watching .......


I found them completely boring.




**After watching the first 3 episodes of Narcos, I was taken by just how dynamic even the dialogue scenes are.  A conversation on the steps of a building while people are heading to a press-conference, they're talking while there is a noteworthy reveal on a television, people are planning while a party is being set-up in the background and you see security milling about ... it is creative and it is visually interesting and you're getting the story through more than just dialogue.



The Punisher, and increasingly the MCU TV as a whole, don't do that well.  It's people in a room, talking.  And then they go do something they just talked about.  And then they come back and they talk more.  Usually right back to the same conference room or setting we saw earlier.  Or they flash back to their dead wife and kids.



Punisher's last four episodes were excellent.  His appearance in DD2 was the highlight of that season.  It's not all bad.  I don't hate the MCU Punisher, in fact, I think Bernthal is great.   PunisherS1 just has the wrong tone for about 2/3rds of its run and flounders about for way too long.




- Shreds - 12-07-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overlord View Post
 


Don't want Punisher: Warzone.  Want Punisher in line with what we saw in DD2.  None of that requires umpteen flashbacks, a retcon of his family's murder so we can have yet another military complex betrayal storyline, or a meandering tale of Micro's family and his wife's loneliness or the travails of returning veterans.  More Punisher from DD2, please.


This, exactly. Most of DareDevil season 2 had me waiting for the Punisher to show up because he stole every scene he was in. I spent most of The Punisher's first season waiting for that guy to show up too, but he never did.




- Overlord - 12-07-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
 

This, exactly. Most of DareDevil season 2 had me waiting for the Punisher to show up because he stole every scene he was in. I spent most of The Punisher's first season waiting for that guy to show up too, but he never did.



Did the creative teams for the two shows not have any means of communicating with each other?




- stelios - 12-08-2017

The Punisher wasn't that much better. Everything else was just tedious so the character felt better than he actually was.




- freeman - 12-08-2017

So I'm cool skipping this?




- farsight - 12-08-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
 

So I'm cool skipping this?



Depends on how big a Punisher fan you are. I think it's in the same ballpark as Daredevil or Jessica Jones, but there's not a single Marvel/DC show I wouldn't call "skippable".




- ska oreo - 12-08-2017

My point is that there's no where you can really go with a series if all Punisher is is a "one-note murder machine." I think that's always been the issue with the character in the comics and why they had to go the gimmicky route later on until Ennis "fixed" the character in his Max series. Netflix's Punisher isn't exactly there, but it's definitely within that ballpark. It's trying to be more than simply a pseudo-origin story of a comic book character and more about the ramifications of the military machine and how it affects soldiers that go through its system.  It's ambitious, and I appreciated that.




- ska oreo - 12-08-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
 

So I'm cool skipping this?


Nah. I'd say give it a watch.




- Evi - 12-08-2017

AI'll never understand the whole "Why did everyone need this to be Punisher: Warzone?" straw man. As if many of us haven't seen and loved The Wire, Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Narcos and myriad other well-written slowburn crime series. This show didn't need to be 100% punishing 100% of time, it just needed to be not so fucking boring.

And for what it's worth, Ennis's series was successful by doing exactly what this series refused to do, which was embracing what could be considered so problematic about Castle instead of doing its utmost best to deny it.


- ska oreo - 12-08-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evi View Post

I'll never understand the whole "Why did everyone need this to be Punisher: Warzone?" straw man. As if many of us haven't seen and loved The Wire, Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Narcos and myriad other well-written slowburn crime series. This show didn't need to be 100% punishing 100% of time, it just needed to be not so fucking boring.

And for what it's worth, Ennis's series was successful by doing exactly what this series refused to do, which was embracing what could be considered so problematic about Castle instead of doing its utmost best to deny it.

Except that's not really true. Ennis' is very much more of a deconstruction of Frank's behavior rather than embracing. It does nothing to romatacize said violence and more than once suggests that Frank does what he does not out of duty, but because he genuinely enjoys hurting people.



The series doesn't go that far, but it's  there. Especially in the last three episodes.




- syd - 12-09-2017

Yeah, "I AM home." is a pretty solid admission that stabbing the shit out of people is where Frank thinks he belongs. The tragedy of the Punisher is that, deep down, he's GLAD his family is dead. Glad they never had to live long enough to see the monster he truly is deep down. They died seeing him as a loving father and husband and not the mass murderer he would become.



Has there ever been a PUNISHER story where his family was brought back to life? Or a What If showing that even if his family never died, he'd probably sneak out in secret to kill people? Has any comic ever explored that? How Frank isn't a family man driven to this, but a man who never should have had a family to begin with?




- Overlord - 12-09-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd View Post

 

Has there ever been a PUNISHER story where his family was brought back to life?



That's an interesting question.  I will admit that most of my familiarity with the Punisher in the comics is when he crossed over with other characters I was actually following, but I would be very, very surprised if any canon story of the Punisher (excepting Elseworlds-esque "what-ifs") featured his family come back.



It's axiomatic in comic books that "nobody stays dead."  But this isn't always true ... at least for canon/quasi-canon storylines.  There are a few exceptions.  Notably, Bruce Wayne's parents and Uncle Ben.   They stay dead.  And for good reason.  The profound loss and resulting effect on Bruce and Peter, respectively, are the defining aspects of their characters.  It is the first link in the causative chain that forms their identities.



I imagine Castle being the same way.  When the super-hero's identity is forged from a specific tragedy, you have to think that even in the comic book universe people would have realized it isn't a good idea to retcon that tragedy.



That being said, I fully expect someone with more knowledge of The Punisher to tell me I am wrong and that some world-shifting event did bring his family back.




- jmacq1 - 12-09-2017

AIIRC there was in fact a story where Frank’s family came back, albeit I think they were clones or something. Frank ended up killing them himself, but it pretty much broke him and then Wolverine’s son killed him and he became Franken-Castle.

Not joking on that last bit.