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The Incredibles 2 - POST-RELEASE Discussion
#71
While I felt like the first film was a grand slam of awesomeness. This was a solid home run.
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#72
(06-19-2018, 03:29 PM)thecooleravian Wrote: This actually just reminded me of what we keep saying we want from the Bond movies, which is a no-bullshit, goin' on a mission for M story instead of a personal sturm und drang. Which the first movie kinda was, but I can appreciate that this is more "a week in the life of the Incredibles" than yet another life-changing apocalypse within the same calendar year as the last one. At least it didn't pull a Ragnarok and kill off half the cast to try and convince us of how epic it was.

boy, that movie really did a number on you!

also, was Incredibles 2 really not into personal sturm und drang?  Because it had a villain with a pretty personal beef against all superheroes due to dead parents... along with the movie's attempts to make Elastigirl and her initially bond as women.  In terms of the villain's plot, it was about the same in terms of 'apocalyptic' stakes... which is to say, not all that apocalyptic beyond how it would affect supers.

In terms of the basics of the story on paper, I think it is very much like the first movie.  It's only in execution that it doesn't really end up tying all together in the sequel (along with being more comedic overall).
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#73
I'd say it's not at all personal, as I found all that villain stuff to be very perfunctory. Evelyn would just about serve as a one-off Jessica Jones antagonist. And that dead father motivation is about as rote as they come. But more than that, it's all fairly perfunctory for the Incredibles themselves. Mr. Incredible is just plain doing Mr. Mom, and Elastigirl is doing one of those Simpsons episodes where Marge gets a job.

There's no moments of high stakes, such as Mr Incredible thinking his family has been murdered, or Elastigirl warning the kids that the people they're fighting want to kill them. Not to mention the fact that the original is a flat out murder fest, with those henchman getting slaughtered violently all over the back half of the film. Even this one's end of the second act 'lowest point', the adults getting mind-controlled, is mostly played as a joke.
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#74
Buddy and Bob had a personal connection, whereas Evilyn herself points out that she and Helen have only talked for about five minutes. It's not a slam on the movie. I'd much rather have the Incredibles fight 'just some villain' than Bob's long lost and thought dead foster brother, who was actually the mastermind behind banning superheroes all along!


(I suppose they could've made it so Elastigirl or Mr. Incredible personally didn't respond to Daddy Deavor's distress, but who wants the movie to go that dark when it's already so full of raw, seething eroticism?)
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#75
(06-20-2018, 05:45 AM)arjen rudd Wrote: I'd say it's not at all personal, as I found all that villain stuff to be very perfunctory. 

(06-20-2018, 06:55 AM)thecooleravian Wrote: Buddy and Bob had a personal connection, whereas Evilyn herself points out that she and Helen have only talked for about five minutes. 

I agree that a lot of it feels perfunctory.  I'm just saying it's due more to execution than the basic premise lacking the potential for 'personal sturm un drang.'

It doesn't matter that Helen and EVIL-LYNN have only talked for about five minutes.  For a movie, FIVE MINUTES can be a lot.  And in the movie, they actually TALK.  Like... literally discuss ideas about INVENTOR vs SELLER.  The fact is that they talked and bonded... and Helen really thought that she'd found someone who she could relate to.  She wanted to encourage EVIL-LYNN to be bolder with her part of the company.
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#76
The bones are there for Evelyn to be a great villain, I just don't think the movie goes far enough to really make that happen.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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#77
if only the INCREDIBLES and MEGAMIND were a part of a shared animated superhero universe!

then EVIL-LYNN's background could be that she was originally Tina Fey's character from MEGAMIND
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#78
Less than the sum of its parts, but oh, what glorious parts they are.

Everything about the villain feeling perfunctory is accurate, and it leaves the film feeling like a series of audaciously conceived, thrillingly executed animated shorts. Sequences like Jack Jack vs. the raccoon, Elastigirl's first fight with Screenslaver, and Elastigirl's train rescue (the bike!) are absolutely going to go down as some of the best of the year. Bird's in full force there, totally in command of action and humor, just one wild idea after another delivered as wonderfully as they could be. It's a gorgeously directed film, and well-voiced (and it's not Keener's fault she's not as terrifying as Jason Lee was, given the disparity in character development). But it never coheres in that magical way that the original was able to hit the dead-center intersection of character/theme/story for its whole main ensemble. Still a hell of a lot of fun, and what a joy it is to hear Giacchino's towering theme blaring at full volume once again.
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#79
I hated the shit out of this movie.
The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel.
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#80
It's certainly the Moonraker to the first one's The Spy Who Loved Me.
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#81
(06-24-2018, 06:13 PM)thecooleravian Wrote: It's certainly the Moonraker to the first one's The Spy Who Loved Me.

That's quite a loaded comparison!

I happen to like both of those movies, just as I like both INCREDIBLES. To the extent that I think INCREDIBLES 2 is just a bit sillier than the first, I can kinda go along with the MOONRAKER thing.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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#82
Loved INCREDIBLES 2. Indeed, I think I prefer it over the first one, and I never would have anticipated that. Just a lot of fun, and all of the scenes with Jack Jack absolutely killed (especially the raccoon fight).
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#83
I'm actually liking this a bit more as I think about it. Thematically, i think Bird is struggling w/ the idea of how superhero narratives affect our self-worth in both positive and negative ways, and why do we keep coming back to these stories. You can see roots of this idea in Bob's struggle w/ parenthood, Violet learning how being a superhero can kinda suck sometimes, Helen's conflict with Evelyn, Winston's rather childish perspective on it, even the character of Voyd. It doesn't dovetail as elegantly as the original (that the two climaxes of Incredibles come down a family fighting over a remote and a baby throwing a tantrum is an absolute masterstroke) and I don't think Bird fully resolves the question, but there's more going on under the surface than I originally thought.
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#84
Biggest laugh from the crowd: Violet's spit-take.
"I'd rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on Earth."--Steve McQueen
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#85
Enjoyed Bao. My theater was legit disturbed when you-know-what happened.

Main feature. This was good. I liked it a lot. It's probably my third favorite movie of the year after First Reformed and Annihilation (though a very distant third).

The animation is gorgeous. And the framing, the lighting, the details--there is just a higher level that Bird and Pixar are working on here when compared to most other current animated features. Some of the trailers before the movie couldn't have made that any more apparent. This isn't just talented technicians going hard on their computers. This is artistry.

The setpieces are fantastic--this is really where the film got me, the construction and editing of the sequences and the ideas fueling them delivered basically some of the best action I have seen since Fury Road. Action that puts most current live action films to shame, nevermind the animated ones. The humor is good but actually maybe not quite as effective as I thought it was going to be? Still, nothing felt too forced and there were some great laugh moments, most of them involving Jack-Jack. Jack-Jack vs. Raccoon will likely remain the best cinematic one-on-one fight all year.

Story and character--this is where the film gets a bit more questionable for me. I don't understand why this film is over two hours long, there's definitely a good half hour they could have cut out and I'm getting kind of tired of modern tentpole films giving us scenes or bits that felt like they would have been on the cutting room floor or never made it out of pre-production stages ten years ago. The characters still bring with them a lot of the charm they had in the first one, but it's almost like the film is trying to replay that instead of pushing it forward, and the whole story swings on a role reversal of the story structure of the first, which feels like a sort of oddly un-ambitious thing from Bird and also a weird approach given that it has been 14 years since the first one. There is so much to like about nearly every scene in this film but there is also a lot that is unnecessary or feels like wheel-spinning. In the first hour of the movie I really felt like things were being set up for some rich thematic and character pay-offs and... that doesn't really happen? It's not like the back-half of the movie is bad by any stretch, but Chaw's review is spot-on in how it appreciates a lot of the individual ideas that are at work in this film but admits that the end result is very muddled, like Tomorrowland. A much more entertaining and structurally straightforward Tomorrowland, but still conceptually confused.

Much has been made of how this film's villain was weaker than Syndrome in the first one but I will say that I was loving Screenslaver when Screenslaver was, uh, Screenslaver.

I appreciated some of the ideas behind Odenkirk's and Keener's characters but--and it pains me to say this, because I love Odenkirk and Keener and love the idea of them in an Incredibles movie--their characters don't really work. I thought they were working at first and interesting and I kind of loved this casual lux way that Evelyn was designed and animated even if it didn't fully fit with Keener's voice... but then the movie ends and you realize that they took up a lot of screen time and they just didn't add a lot to the movie other than the roles that they had to play in the plot, and that those roles didn't always make the most sense. Odenkirk's character turns out actually sort of has the biggest arc in the movie (which in retrospect is a pretty harsh condemnation of the other character arcs) but it's sudden and I'm not sure it's earned or that it really lands, it just kind of happens while a bunch of other stuff is also happening. Keener's character... uh yeah, still trying to work her out in my head, kind of think it's just a confused character.

Anyways, SOOOO much to love in this movie, and if nothing else its set-pieces are pure delight (I expected nothing less from Bird and co.), but yeah, it maybe doesn't quite cohere and resonate emotionally/thematically quite as well as the first one. And I think it could have been shortened and simplified a bit, but the down-side there being you lose some of that stuff to love. but this is becoming a common mantra for me these days when watching these 2-hr plus movies that don't need that length: KILL YOUR DARLINGS.
the empire never ended
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#86
The animation was stunning, particularly the water effects. The prologue with the Underminer could have been boiled down to five minutes of news footage, giving us a movie of a more digestible length. It would sacrifice one of the action setpieces, but the film already has several excellent ones.

Otherwise yeah, what Wasp said. There were a bunch of kids at my screening and you could tell Jack Jack was going over gangbusters despite the long run time. We’re gonna see a ton of Jack Jack merchandise this season, most likely Demon Baby.
“I feel a connection with you. A man connection. A mannection.”
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#87
Saw The Incredibles 2 today and I thought it's a pretty solid sequel to the first one, but whereas the first half of the movie was very good and set up the climax well, it never really deliver the goods at the end. I think the problem is the villain Evelyn, whose motivation wasn't strong enough to make her compelling, and the action scenes on the ship felt oddly unsatisfying. Hopefully Brad Bird won't wait another 14 years before he delivers the third movie, though; I want to see this franchise finish as a trilogy, and not as a two-parter.

"Jesus Christ! You've got some problems! First the balls, now my death!" - Daniel Craig

 
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#88
I will now spew forth nitpicks!

Pretty sure an anchor chain can stop a propeller.

No shot of an undaunted raccoon back in the garbage while the Parrs are at the movies?

Similarly, no “You done good kid” moment from Elastigirl to Voyd? Instead Voyd just gets an awkward apology moment with Violet. Although on second thought the movie might have an interesting point to make concerning how Elastigirl is framed as a mentor figure to a new cohort of Supers but she doesn’t actually do any mentoring.

I know we’re supposed to regard Winston Deavor as a tireless optimist, but his last bit of dialogue makes it seem like he has brain trauma. It would have been nice to see him processing that his sister is a super villain. Who knows? Maybe some dark part of him thinks that’s kinda cool.

Anyways, still enjoyed it.
“I feel a connection with you. A man connection. A mannection.”
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#89
The movie's attitude towards Winston is condescending from the start. "He's... nostalgic."

But the Parrs still take his money because that's what film directors heroes do.
"I'd rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on Earth."--Steve McQueen
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#90
(06-30-2018, 09:52 PM)lightning slim Wrote: The animation was stunning, particularly the water effects. The prologue with the Underminer could have been boiled down to five minutes of news footage, giving us a movie of a more digestible length. It would sacrifice one of the action setpieces, but the film already has several excellent ones.

Nah, then it would be like Ghostbusters 2 or The Force Awakens, just saying the heroes become in-universe hated failures since the first film instead of showing. 
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#91
Hm, well, maybe it’s not a great plot motivator to begin with.

I was pretty excited to discover Odenkirk would be in this. But that character ends up with nothing. He’s not even funny
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#92
yeah, I'm right there with you on that. the idea of Odenkirk in an Incredibles movie just filled me with joy, it seemed so right, and then his character was... that. basically, a plot device who talked a lot. and the design of his character was so uninspired and didn't make much sense with the voice, probably even less sense that Keener's voice to Evelyn.

it's kind of befuddling to me that the movie can do so many things as brilliantly as it does but then have some real fundamental core things that are essential to the story end up feeling so... misguided? like, I don't want to say there wasn't enough thought put in, but I think maybe Bird latched onto some ideas that he couldn't let go of and didn't make the most sense with each other. like wanting to create these rich siblings that are basically a salesman and an inventor, and then think of Odenkirk as a salesman (which makes sense), but not a sleazy one, like a really earnest and polished one (which doesn't make as much sense), and also have these disparate aspects of Evelyn's character that could have made for nuance but instead the film drops the ball with how to develop them and integrate them together because it gets too busy with the juggling act it's handed itself in the back half.

I don't like how the film recycled so much of its dramatic structure and character dynamics from the first film but I really did think that, in spite of that, it was doing something that was working and was building towards something and then the last part of the film happens and you don't come away feeling nearly as satisfied with the storytelling as you would have expected. But, again, I love the artistry that went into how this film was constructed on an aesthetic and action level.
the empire never ended
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#93
Just finished seeing this and thought it was a lot of fun. My only criticism is that as far as film climaxes go, a runaway hoverspeeder is somewhat less interesting than Syndrome's giant robot thing from the first film. But still, well done once again, Brad Bird!

Also, Sugar Bombs cereal! Sweet FALLOUT reference?
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#94
Just saw this and I agree with the villain frustration. I kept thinking both siblings would be in on it, with Winston wanting to create a supervillain for Elastigirl to beat to make her look good and Evelyn hijacking the plan at the end to get back at the supers.
Superlaser speaks for me from now on.

-Bart
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#95
I enjoyed the film, but I agree with the view that it's not really at the level of the first one. I think the decision to hide the villain until the end was a mistake, because it created a big hole in the narrative that they fill by cutting away to ...Bob's adventures in being a dad. In the first film, the B-plot was basically Elastigirl bringing the kids to the island and having their own adventure that tied-in nicely to Bob's plot. Here though Bob's struggles to help his kids takes momentum away from Elastigirls Batman-like adventure in New York. And with no bad guy to cut away to there's a real draggy feel to the middle of the movie. The Speed 2 finale was a bit jarring, and I thought maybe they overpowered Frozone a bit at the end there with the ship, but I liked Elastigirl's fight sequence at least. Some fun character stuff, Jack-Jack vs the Raccoon was brilliant, and I loved the joke where the guy was saying to Bob about how you can't just go and un-punch someone.
There are weapons in my hands, my hands are weapons.
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#96
Just briefly on the subject of Winston, I liked the character. I think the easy (read: lazy) route would have had him turn out to be a slimeball, whether in league with his sister's nefarious plans or not, so I appreciated that he was truly this genuine, affable fellow. I think the movie is gently poking fun at his childlike nostalgia for the Supers, sure, but in a fairly affectionate and gentle way.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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#97
I get what you're saying, Bellog, but I think they just ended up failing to make the character engaging or interesting and it felt like a waste of Odenkirk. Like, if he's not gonna be a sleaze like the Odenkirk voice might try to imply, then at least give him a stronger hook then "he's infatuated with superheroes and he's rich."
the empire never ended
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#98
He doesn’t even have to be a full-on sleazebag. He could be legitimately trying to help the supers by setting up Elastigirl for success. Play up the showman angle more than the sleaze. I think that would also work with the sexism angle; the man underestimates Elastigirl’s ability to handle herself and his sister’s ability to manipulate him.
Superlaser speaks for me from now on.

-Bart
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#99
Yep, there’s no chauvinism, which would at least be a feint toward that underdeveloped plotline. There’s no sleaze, which would be the least you could ask for if you’ve got Odenkirk on hand, and they don’t even bother to set him up as a red herring.

They could certainly have made him complicit in false flag super villain idea, the sort of amoral kind of thing that would have set up a potential Pixar-mature take on the power of marketing, or fucking something, anything, but naw. I don’t think the movie gives a damn what we think of Winston, in the end.
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(07-01-2018, 06:34 PM)superlaser Wrote: Just saw this and I agree with the villain frustration. I kept thinking both siblings would be in on it, with Winston wanting to create a supervillain for Elastigirl to beat to make her look good and Evelyn hijacking the plan at the end to get back at the supers.

That's what I assumed was going on for the majority of the movie, the Deavors creating the threats that Elastigirl has to thwart -- whether sincerely to bring supers back or for more nefarious ulterior goals. Basically, Sam Jackson in Unbreakable. Even if they're doing it sincerely, Elastigirl and the others might still have the moral struggle of "We want to come back, but not like this!" Instead, Winston's completely in the dark, and it's all Evelyn's somewhat convoluted plan to almost bring supers back only to discredit them even more. (Why not just leave them illegal and discredited? Why does she have to do anything? Maybe because her brother's steamrolling ahead with his super relegalization campaign and she needs to derail that, maybe? In which case, the Deavors are the two opposing sides in the story, with the Parrs and the rest of the supers just pawns in their feud. I don't know.)

That said, I enjoyed it a lot overall. Looks great, funny, terrific action (that fight in Screenslaver's strobing/blinking Faraday cage, followed by the chase through the apartment building, was something else). But the actual plot in general, and the villain in particular, was a weak link.
Originally posted by Schwartz on Cool as Ice ("When a girl has a heart of stone, there's only one way to melt it. Just add Ice."):
"It's not just a mixed metaphor, or that the stone is one that is melting...but the ice is actually making it melt. (kisses fingers) Magnifique."
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I think maybe if both Evelyn and Winston were in on the plot to discredit the Supers it would harm the overall arc of the Supers being made legal again (which I think was still happening at the end of the film?). It seems to me that that's the overall storyline Pixar want to carry into any Incredibles 3. This way Winston can still press ahead with the political angle.
There are weapons in my hands, my hands are weapons.
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True enough, which suggests the overall plotline has issues. Especially as it’s a plotline that was already happening in the background of the original, where it was essentially resolved. Instead, Ghostbusters 2.
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What's that? You want me to rank all the Pixar movies? But I mustn't! There'll be consequences...but

1. Ratatouille - Brilliant, lovely, heartfelt storytelling with a deep passion for the subject matter
2. The Incredibles - Still arguably the best superhero film there is
3. Inside Out - almost too good, it's such an emotional ringer I've yet to revisit it
4. Toy Story 3 - this I've revisited over and over. Where this series finally clicked for me
5. Finding Nemo - maybe the best looking still, and so heartwarming!
6. Monsters Inc. - underrated, it's got a lot going on under the surface and the central relationship is sneaky great
7. Up - I'm less into this than everyone else, but it's still pretty great
8. Coco - A tiny bit saggy in the middle, but I love everything it's doing thematically, and what and ending!
9. Toy Story - this would probably rank higher if it didn't look so janky now
10. Finding Dory - I fully expected this to be nothing, but it's got so much heart. And I just like the seals from The Wire
11. Wall-E - Nice movie, looks great, doesn't much get me
12. A Bug's Life - I like this one. Very simple relative to the rest, but the voice cast is terrific and it's awfully colorful
13. The Incredibles 2 - Maybe it'll grow on me
14. Toy Story 2 - It's fine, but the least of the series. says things the other two say better
15. Monsters University - doesn't work. I admire the attempt at a college movie, but you can't make a college movie in a G rated film
16. Brave - I find this movie singularly unpleasant. Like the world, but ugh, the characters are a chore to be around
17. Cars - weird, dumb
18. Cars 2 - still weird and dumb, but at least they're trying something different
19. Cars 3 - no longer weird, still dumb, and absolutely nothing is different

The Good Dinosaur - I'll never see it!
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With you on RATATOUILLE being #1. That one will be hard to top.
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Here's my attempt, thrown together in about a minute:
1. THE INCREDIBLES
2. RATATOUILLE
3. INSIDE OUT
4. WALL-E
5. TOY STORY 2
6. UP
7. TOY STORY
8. TOY STORY 3
9. INCREDIBLES 2
10. MONSTERS, INC.
11. a bug’s life
12. FINDING NEMO
13. BRAVE
14. COCO
15. MONSTERS UNIVERSITY
16. CARS
17. FINDING DORY
18. THE GOOD DINOSAUR
19. CARS 3
20. CARS 2
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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