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Star Wars IX: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-Release Discussion - Suffering Without End)
Yeah, that Throne room scene wasn't exciting and interesting and fun at all.
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(10-30-2020, 08:50 PM)freeman Wrote: Yeah, that Throne room scene wasn't exciting and interesting and fun at all.

Pretty sure I mocked the godawful fight choreography and noted that the pointlessness of building to that particularly climax in the second film of a trilogy only to have Rey reject Ben in my opening Thursday night review.

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The problem with comparing the prequels and sequels is that you can discuss the flaws and merits of the prequels as a single entity, but the sequels really break down to the Abrams retreads vs TLJ.
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(10-30-2020, 08:53 PM)Overlord Wrote:
(10-30-2020, 08:50 PM)freeman Wrote: Yeah, that Throne room scene wasn't exciting and interesting and fun at all.

Pretty sure I mocked the godawful fight choreography and noted that the pointlessness of building to that particularly climax in the second film of a trilogy only to have Rey reject Ben in my opening Thursday night review.

Goofy choreography brushed over in favour of story and character first and foremost??  IN A STAR WARS LIGHTSABER DUEL?!

WHY I NEVER!!!!






"the choreography is stupid" is maybe the WORST of the really awful bad Star Wars takes.
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(10-30-2020, 08:50 PM)freeman Wrote: Yeah, that Throne room scene wasn't exciting and interesting and fun at all.

It's fine, but ultimately just a massive tease because Rey and Kylo are immediately back in their designated corners only moments after the fight ends.

And I will say, for the record, that I think Luke's reappearance on Crait up until Kylo goes down to face him directly is excellent.  Luke walking out there like a badass momentarily had me incredibly psyched.  Hamill's body language, the lighting of the scene, and the John Williams score are all top-notch. 

I just detest everything about his death that follows, so that naturally drags the entire sequence down for me.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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(10-30-2020, 09:14 PM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(10-30-2020, 08:50 PM)freeman Wrote: Yeah, that Throne room scene wasn't exciting and interesting and fun at all.

It's fine, but ultimately just a massive tease because Rey and Kylo are immediately back in their designated corners only moments after the fight ends.

And I will say, for the record, that I think Luke's reappearance on Crait up until Kylo goes down to face him directly is excellent.  Luke walking out there like a badass momentarily had me incredibly psyched.  Hamill's body language, the lighting of the scene, and the John Williams score are all top-notch. 

I just detest everything about his death that follows, so that naturally drags the entire sequence down for me.

The fact that he dies of exhaustion, you mean?
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It just felt so unnecessary and arbitrary to me. There's no reason that made-up Force ability (which they all are) required Luke to exhaust himself to death, and the only reason it happens is because Johnson didn't think there was anything left to explore with the character. I disagree.

But again, his death in any context was probably always going to be a bridge too far for me. But this iteration -- especially after that awesome lead-up to it -- completely and utterly deflated me.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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There’s no reason for it to kill him, except maximum dramatic effect and avoiding that new made up power breaking the universe entirely.
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I don't think the Force Projection -- as a concept -- breaks the universe any more than the Holdo Maneuver does.

Which is to say, you can handwave it away if you need to.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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I think having Luke pass away was really the correct move because Rey needed to be on her own for the next film. Luke would just suck all the air out of the room if he were alive.

That said, I wish they had used him better as a Force ghost in TROS (though that bit with him lifting his X-Wing was such a sweet sweet moment).
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Why do you guys keep talking about the TLJ dance scene as if it was a fight?
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I never really saw Luke "dying" as that big of a deal. When a Jedi master "dies" in this series it really just means he glows blue a little bit.
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(10-31-2020, 12:08 AM)freeman Wrote: I never really saw Luke "dying" as that big of a deal. When a Jedi master "dies" in this series it really just means he glows blue a little bit.

Well a very carefully considered shade of blue.
“I call upon you to stop this musical now,” she said to the board. “You tear a community apart if you don’t.” -Prachi Ruina                                                            
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The point is at this point, as much as I would love to see the extended adventures of Luke Skywalker the Disney+ series with eight seasons and tons of Han and Leia in there to suppliment the new movies, it was pretty obvious that Luke was going to be used as expected as a mentor figure. And in the capacity of a mentor figure, Obi wan didn't exactly have to be alive for 2/3rds of the first trilogy to serve his function.

Once again, I cannot stress this enough, none of this is what I would want to do with a blank slate for the sequel trilogy. But as a reaction to TFA, I don't think TLJ in general(and in killing Luke) was so out of line or horrific.
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It's a wee bit depressing how much of a reaction the JJ films, particularly TFA, are to the prequels.

'People have been making Galactic C-SPAN jokes for 15 years' - duhh, better get rid of any exposition that would contextualise this bit of the story's relationship to the previous, extremely beloved, film.

'People thought the characters were too aloof and unrelatable' - better make sure that the feral scavenger, the child soldier, and the ace pilot are all cool bros who crack wise all the time.

'People thought they didn't have the same feel as the originals' - better make sure to include Tatooine, Hoth, a Death Star, and we'll make the baddie a giant, gnarled hologram, lest people forget what series this is'.

Don't get me wrong, their cognisance of the prequels' led to some awesome stuff - the sequels' balancing of practical stuff, CGI, and puppetry is fucking perfect, and the acting is uniformly pretty great. But it seemed to be 'do the opposite of what the prequels did', not 'avoid the flaws of the prequels'.

And as far as the quality of the films go, TPM and ROTS are orders of magnitude better than TFA and TROS; the opposite is true for TLJ and AOTC (AOTC, post TROS, no longer being the worst SW film).
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(10-30-2020, 08:13 PM)freeman Wrote:
(10-30-2020, 07:11 PM)Belloq87 Wrote: In general, I think the highs in the Prequels are higher than in the Sequels, but the lows are much, much lower.

This won't be popular, but I'd say things like Luke teaching Rey the nature of the Force, Lukes final stand, Kylo and Rey kill Snoke and take on the guards etc. etc. are all higher highs than the Prequels ever achieved.

Yep, those scenes have something called ... drama... in them. Something the prequels don't
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I'm the only person on the planet that Rise of Skywalker actually has grown on, I think. And I didn't hate it to begin with. I think it kicks the snot out of The Force Awakens. That's my pick for worst Disney made SW movie (though I still like it). 

TLJ is the best of the ST

Rogue One is the best of the Disney films.

Revenge of the Sith is the best of the PT

Empire Strikes Back is the best SW movie that wasn't made in 1977 and it has the best lightsaber duel.

A New Hope is a gift from the movie gods that has a whole bunch of other films that please me just because they play around in its world. ANH and ESB are good in a way none of the rest will ever be or probably COULD ever be.
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(11-03-2020, 04:28 PM)fraid uh noman Wrote: I'm the only person on the planet that Rise of Skywalker actually has grown on, I think.

I wish I could say the same.

I just haven't seen it since Dec 2019, but I was one of the few here that liked it fine, warts and all. It's still the worst of the non-prequels Star Wars entries, aside from ROGUE ONE which is trash.
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[attachment=7023]
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Admittedly, my low opinion of R1 is heavily influenced by the adoration it seems to get. Like with JOKER, I just don't fucking get it.
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Quit trying to pretend being a non-fan of Rogue One puts you in the minority Stocks, most say it's of janky construction and the lead characters are tough to connect with.

Everyone knows that in reality it is those of us who dig that film who are the scrappy band of rebels.
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[Image: tumblr_psw983qSgD1tkj812_640.gifv]
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R1 has a hologram of Mads Mikkelsen in an Imperial uniform humbly talking about how his GENIUS is going to save the whole entire FUCKING galaxy.

10/10
I'm not Avery.
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Despite the clunky first half, it ends extremely strong and it might have the most gorgeous visuals of any Star Wars movie. And it has Mads Mikkelsen. It was MADE for me to love it.
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The last 40 minutes of ROGUE ONE have far and away the most entertaining action of any of the Disney movies.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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The street ambush scene is aces, Chirrut and Baze wasting fools is amazing, "Be careful not to ... choke ... on your aspirations ..." is maybe the best line in any Star Wars movie since "That's impossible, even for a computer" ... need I go on?
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(11-03-2020, 09:44 PM)Bucho Wrote: "Be careful not to ... choke ... on your aspirations ..." is maybe the best line in any Star Wars movie since "That's impossible, even for a computer" ... need I go on?

No wonder GenXers love this movie. It hits their dad joke spot.
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By best does he really mean "most groan worthy" line?
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"Be careful not to choke on your aspirations..." is just one step more camp than "Apology accepted Captain Needa." It's that sweet spot of almost too silly garnish where Star Wars thrives, imo. Or, at least, directors need to be willing to risk going too silly sometimes if they're going to make something that feels like Lucas's films.

Rogue One's characters are underrated. Jyn and Cassian are completely solid leads, they're just dour and sad people instead of people fed through JJ Abrams's 'Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum's characters in Independence Day represent the height of movie dialogue' philosophy. Jyn would have made a far, far better lead than Rey, and I'm befuddled that so much criticism of R1 in 2016 argued that TFA's characters were phenomenal in comparison.

Also, R1 gets to play about in the beloved (and best) Star Wars timeframe, that is to say the rebellion - that dynamic, those designs, and characters like Vader and Tarkin and such aren't just window dressing. And Galen's speech to Jyn, and the whole sequence at the end with the Death Star firing on Scarif are two of the best pulled off scenes in all the films. The worst you can say about Rogue One's low points are that they're a bit dull, but it's got a lot of fantastic bits.
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They're dull, and it's like, MOST of the movie.

I had a lot of patience for it on my first viewing, but on rewatches getting to the third act is a SLOOOOG. These characters and their problems are just NOT interesting enough to justify my time for an hour.
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(11-04-2020, 02:30 AM)rexbanner Wrote: "Be careful not to choke on your aspirations..." is just one step more camp than "Apology accepted Captain Needa." It's that sweet spot of almost too silly garnish where Star Wars thrives, imo. Or, at least, directors need to be willing to risk going too silly sometimes if they're going to make something that feels like Lucas's films.

Rogue One's characters are underrated. Jyn and Cassian are completely solid leads, they're just dour and sad people instead of people fed through JJ Abrams's 'Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum's characters in Independence Day represent the height of movie dialogue' philosophy. Jyn would have made a far, far better lead than Rey, and I'm befuddled that so much criticism of R1 in 2016 argued that TFA's characters were phenomenal in comparison.

Also, R1 gets to play about in the beloved (and best) Star Wars timeframe, that is to say the rebellion - that dynamic, those designs, and characters like Vader and Tarkin and such aren't just window dressing. And Galen's speech to Jyn, and the whole sequence at the end with the Death Star firing on Scarif are two of the best pulled off scenes in all the films. The worst you can say about Rogue One's low points are that they're a bit dull, but it's got a lot of fantastic bits.

I've still never really clicked with Cassian, but on the 3rd watch I started to really dig Jyn. Jones doesn't have the perky, starbright charisma of Ridley (or Boyega or Isaac or BB-8), but her more beaten down performance fits this relatively more gritty take on Star Wars storytelling real nice and Jyn's a more intriguing and fleshed out character overall than anyone in the ST aside from Kylo. Meanwhile Baze and Chirrut are fun as heck in every scene they're in, K-2 is aces, Bodhi is kind of a lovable goof, Krennic is a blast and Forest is having a ball.

Aside from the unforgivably goofy behaviour of Jyn's mum, the worst I can say about Rogue One's low points - which are all pre-Jyn's arrival at Yavin - is that they fit together jankily. Once Jyn gets to Yavin the movie becomes a real good time.

There's also the odd and charming irony that even though Rogue One is more integrally linked to the OT than the ST is, the guerrilla war fillum vibe means it doesn't feel like it's leaning on nostalgia to the same degree the ST is. It feels far more like its own thing. Far more adventurous. I could've done without the fanservicey Vader scenes but even those feel like fresh looks at The Great Man. There is better work at times in the ST (especially in TLJ) but aside from Kylo not much of it feels as fresh as Rogue One does.
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Darth Maul and Darth Talon were going to be the villains in George Lucas’ sequel trilogy. Maul becomes a Vito Corleone-like crime lord and trains Talon as his assassin. Lucas says she was going to be the sequel trilogy version of Darth Vader. Leia would’ve ended the trilogy as the Supreme Chancellor, Lucas says she was the true chosen one all along. He also made it sound like episode seven took place soon after ROTJ followed by a 20 year time jump for episode eight. All this info comes from the upcoming Star Wars archives book.
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That sounds awful, especially retconning Anakin's importance.

I thought the villains in Lucas' Episode VII treatment were supposed to be space pirates/marauders?
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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Lucas says lots of things!
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(11-09-2020, 10:53 PM)serpico jones Wrote: He also made it sound like episode seven took place soon after ROTJ followed by a 20 year time jump for episode eight. All this info comes from the upcoming Star Wars archives book.

I suppose Lucas wanted to play with that de-aging tech? Funny, with that structure we would have had VII being the backstory that some fans wish had before TFA. Then VIII would have essentially been a different version of TLJ with Luke still dying at the end.

(11-09-2020, 10:59 PM)Belloq87 Wrote: That sounds awful, especially retconning Anakin's importance.

To be fair, that would have at least paid off the line "misread, the prophecy could have been". Even still, Anakin helping overthrow the Empire is important enough that it set the path for Leia to step up and restore order in the galaxy as Supreme Chancellor.

Of course, Carrie Fisher still would have passed away, so any Episode IX would have been seriously compromised.
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