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I still DO like Star Wars
My pushback on that would be that WE know Ben is a changed man. We know he’s really helping. So having Finn be distrustful would play badly for a character who was already misused in the movie. There would be no tension there. Especially since Finn wouldn’t be able to do anything that wouldn’t come across as a hinderance.

But having Ben come to the resistance is good. I think it would be better if Finn was the one who was the first to trust... to go along with his Force sensitivity.
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(12-31-2020, 02:29 PM)Nooj Wrote: I think it would be better if Finn was the one who was the first to trust... to go along with his Force sensitivity.

I think that's an excellent idea.

My idea for the sequence would really just be an excuse for Ben to be able to interact with characters like Chewie, Finn, and Lando.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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You edited out something about the drama that could take place between a bunch of the supporting characters with Kylo's return.

Due to the nature of blockbuster plotting/momentum and Kylo's return happening right before the leadup to the climactic finale, there would unfortunately be very little time to actually deal with that drama.

And given the fact that none of these characters outside of Poe and Finn (and kinda Chewie) have faced Kylo/Ben, the drama is all metatextual. None of it is set up to be dramatized in the first place.

It reminds me of Johnson saying that he toyed with the idea of Anakin being the one to appear when Luke is about to burn the tree. From a metatextual view, it makes sense for the ghost of his father to come talk to Luke. But Hayden Christensen and Mark Hamill have no onscreen relationship for us (except from ROTJ special edition hahahah).

But Hamill and Frank Oz definitely do. And that's what Johnson went with.
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(12-31-2020, 02:39 PM)Nooj Wrote: It reminds me of Johnson saying that he toyed with the idea of Anakin being the one to appear when Luke is about to burn the tree.  From a metatextual view, it makes sense for the ghost of his father to come talk to Luke.  But Hayden Christensen and Mark Hamill have no onscreen relationship for us (except from ROTJ special edition hahahah).

Somewhere prequel fans are tearing their hair out over learning this.

On Belloq's point of there needing to be a larger villain to overcome in TROS after Ben Solo's return, I point to the Knights of Ren! For once we actually get to see them in their glory... and Abrams just turns them all into chumps who can't handle a single swordsman.
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(12-31-2020, 02:39 PM)Nooj Wrote: You edited out something about the drama that could take place between a bunch of the supporting characters with Kylo's return.

Due to the nature of blockbuster plotting/momentum and Kylo's return happening right before the leadup to the climactic finale, there would unfortunately be very little time to actually deal with that drama.

This is exactly why I edited that out, because this thought did occur to me!

(12-31-2020, 02:39 PM)Nooj Wrote: And given the fact that none of these characters outside of Poe and Finn (and kinda Chewie) have faced Kylo/Ben, the drama is all metatextual. None of it is set up to be dramatized in the first place.

I don't necessarily disagree, but the fact that we went two whole movies without Kylo interacting with any of the classic characters closest to his father after he killed him (other than Luke, briefly) seems like a giant missed opportunity.

Ditto for no interaction with Leia, but some of that was obviously unavoidable. I suspect if Fisher had been alive when TROS was filmed, they would have had a scene together.

(12-31-2020, 02:50 PM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: On Belloq's point of there needing to be a larger villain to overcome in TROS after Ben Solo's return, I point to the Knights of Ren! For once we actually get to see them in their glory... and Abrams just turns them all into chumps who can't handle a single swordsman.

I agree about the Knights of Ren. They should have been introduced -- properly -- in TFA, expanded upon and made real characters in TLJ, and then taken over the primary villainous role in TROS (in the absence of Palpatine). Perhaps working with a non-goofball Hux to undermine Supreme Leader Kylo when they think he's going astray.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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(12-31-2020, 03:11 PM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(12-31-2020, 02:39 PM)Nooj Wrote: And given the fact that none of these characters outside of Poe and Finn (and kinda Chewie) have faced Kylo/Ben, the drama is all metatextual.  None of it is set up to be dramatized in the first place.

I don't necessarily disagree, but the fact that we went two whole movies without Kylo interacting with any of the classic characters closest to his father after he killed him (other than Luke, briefly) seems like a giant missed opportunity.

Ditto for no interaction with Leia, but some of that was obviously unavoidable.  I suspect if Fisher had been alive when TROS was filmed, they would have had a scene together.

that's definitely what they were building towards with Leia being the legacy focus of the third movie

I don't see Kylo never meeting the other classic characters as any more of a lost opportunity than Vader and Leia getting no interaction post-sister-revelation.

It's just not the story.  And the idea of seeing Billy Dee Williams interact with Adam Driver in this context doesn't sound particularly tantalizing.  

Chewie is really the only other classic character that has SOME kind of grounding in an onscreen relationship with Kylo (pew pew pew!).  So that's one that could be paid off.... perhaps with something like THIS???

[Image: Eoplpq7W4AAEmsJ?format=jpg&name=900x900]


[Image: Eopl1aqXcAInep-?format=jpg&name=900x900][Image: EpSUbA_UwAcURcb?format=jpg&name=900x900]

ohohohohohoho
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(12-31-2020, 03:11 PM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(12-31-2020, 02:39 PM)Nooj Wrote: And given the fact that none of these characters outside of Poe and Finn (and kinda Chewie) have faced Kylo/Ben, the drama is all metatextual.  None of it is set up to be dramatized in the first place.

I don't necessarily disagree, but the fact that we went two whole movies without Kylo interacting with any of the classic characters closest to his father after he killed him (other than Luke, briefly) seems like a giant missed opportunity.

I can see a lot there with Luke and Leia, but really, anyone else? Chewie wouldn't give him the time of day unless it involved ripping his head off and feeding it to the porgs.

Quote:Ditto for no interaction with Leia, but some of that was obviously unavoidable.  I suspect if Fisher had been alive when TROS was filmed, they would have had a scene together.

Without a doubt. Johnson had already set up the idea that he couldn't kill his mother, so there definitely had to be something to follow that. She would be the key to bringing back Ben.
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(12-31-2020, 03:29 PM)Nooj Wrote: Chewie is really the only other classic character that has SOME kind of grounding in an onscreen relationship with Kylo (pew pew pew!).  So that's one that could be paid off.... perhaps with something like THIS???

[Image: Eoplpq7W4AAEmsJ?format=jpg&name=900x900]


[Image: Eopl1aqXcAInep-?format=jpg&name=900x900][Image: EpSUbA_UwAcURcb?format=jpg&name=900x900]

ohohohohohoho

Yuck, not that sappy!

But trying for something a bit more emotionally complex might have been nice, though!
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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(12-31-2020, 07:30 AM)fraid uh noman Wrote: If he hasn't said those words himself, he sure hasn't discouraged his tiny cult of personality from doing it. Which...if he really means to practice what he preaches, he should..

How sure are you about that "sure" though?

"I don't advocate the firing or "cancelling" of anyone, including Mr. Hidalgo"
-Star Wars Theory

"First learn to heal people, to be great.
Hurting people is easy."

-Star Wars Theory

What evidence you have that this guy who appears to take a pretty fierce and loud anti-bullying stance "sure hasn't discouraged" his viewers from harming others, or that "He's probably one of those assholes who flooded Kelly Marie Tran with hate", how many of these very serious charges you're levelling against another human being are backed by anything other than baseless and biased assumptions?

And yes, the reason I am pushing back against you and Rex for hating on this fellow human being without providing anything close to a receipt is that I fear losing you both to The Dark Side.
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LOOK AT MORE!!!

https://twitter.com/kasiopeaart
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(12-31-2020, 03:51 PM)Nooj Wrote: LOOK AT MORE!!!

https://twitter.com/kasiopeaart

[Image: giphy.gif]
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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Hey what'd I miss...

   
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[Image: 12550457_20201021131737_jpeg1bf305be4980...34992f3ea7]
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(12-31-2020, 08:44 PM)fraid uh noman Wrote:
(12-31-2020, 03:51 PM)Bucho Wrote:
(12-31-2020, 07:30 AM)fraid uh noman Wrote: If he hasn't said those words himself, he sure hasn't discouraged his tiny cult of personality from doing it. Which...if he really means to practice what he preaches, he should..

How sure are you about that "sure" though?

"I don't advocate the firing or "cancelling" of anyone, including Mr. Hidalgo"
-Star Wars Theory

"First learn to heal people, to be great.
Hurting people is easy."

-Star Wars Theory

What evidence you have that this guy who appears to take a pretty fierce and loud anti-bullying stance "sure hasn't discouraged" his viewers from harming others, or that "He's probably one of those assholes who flooded Kelly Marie Tran with hate", how many of these very serious charges you're levelling against another human being are backed by anything other than baseless and biased assumptions?
Sure enough that I'd put money on it ...

Wait ... Fraid ... dude ... even after quotes have been posted TWICE in this thread showing that he ABSOLUTELY discouraged his viewers from harming others ... you'd still put money on him not having discouraged his viewers from harming others?
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Honestly, I had never engaged with Star Wars Theory, but I decided to browse through their videos, and they all seem to be either analysis or what-if scenarios.  There are plenty of openly toxic channels out there, some of which are seizing on this issue to validate their claims...but you can't really pin that on the original channel.

At the end, it's another frustrating internet skirmish that's been ongoing for three years now.  I'm just going to say that the discourse rapidly degenerated back in December of 2017.  It's literally became a case of "If you're not with me, you're my enemy" in some quarters.
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(12-31-2020, 11:36 PM)Bucho Wrote:
(12-31-2020, 08:44 PM)fraid uh noman Wrote:
(12-31-2020, 03:51 PM)Bucho Wrote:
(12-31-2020, 07:30 AM)fraid uh noman Wrote: If he hasn't said those words himself, he sure hasn't discouraged his tiny cult of personality from doing it. Which...if he really means to practice what he preaches, he should..

How sure are you about that "sure" though?

"I don't advocate the firing or "cancelling" of anyone, including Mr. Hidalgo"
-Star Wars Theory

"First learn to heal people, to be great.
Hurting people is easy."

-Star Wars Theory

What evidence you have that this guy who appears to take a pretty fierce and loud anti-bullying stance "sure hasn't discouraged" his viewers from harming others, or that "He's probably one of those assholes who flooded Kelly Marie Tran with hate", how many of these very serious charges you're levelling against another human being are backed by anything other than baseless and biased assumptions?
Sure enough that I'd put money on it ...

Wait ... Fraid ... dude ... even after quotes have been posted TWICE in this thread showing that he ABSOLUTELY discouraged his viewers from harming others ... you'd still put money on him not having discouraged his viewers from harming others?
Ok. I'm gonna go deep diving for a couple specifics. If I don't find them, I'll erase the comments. If I've got this guy totally mixed up with some of the really harmful ones, I'll delete it and say so.

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How dare you, Fraid.

(clutches pearls)
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(01-01-2021, 02:27 AM)fraid uh noman Wrote: Ok. I'm gonna go deep diving for a couple specifics. If I don't find them, I'll erase the comments. If I've got this guy totally mixed up with some of the really harmful ones, I'll delete it and say so.

Yeah, I took a look through a few of his TLJ related ones earlier and like Mondguy said above, while he doesn't hide that he wasn't a TLJ fan he also doesn't seem too interested in "stoking division". I hear him saying things like "I know some loved TLJ and some didn't and I love you all" and "Make your feelings known in the comments below but be cordial" and "I don't want the comments section to turn into a war."

Maybe there is some toxic TLJ hater guy out there who looks like this dude because even Nooj seemed convinced he'd built his channel off of TLJ hate when the evidence suggests the contrary if anything.
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Mike Zeroh.

That's who I directly confused him with. I admit I wasn't right about this guy. I thought Mike Zeroh and Star Wars Theory were one and the same. I was wrong..

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I mean if you make 1000 videos about why you dislike TLJ, I don't care how nice and level-headed you are about it. You've sort of objectively contributed to designed a cult of personality against a thing and the assholes will get behind it not nicely.
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Sometimes movies just don't work for people. That's it. And it's not a moral or intellectual failing on their part. If someone doesn't like TLJ I would pay more attention to how and why they didn't care for it rather than using that single data point to judge them on everything.
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Kevin Jenkins, one of the artists who worked on the sequels, has been posting previously unreleased Exegol and Palpatine concept art. I absolutely loved the prequel and LotR art books that came out when I were a lad, so while I've lapped up the new art books it did annoy me a bit when the TROS book came out without the most interesting design stuff to avoid plot details leaking. 

https://twitter.com/kev_jenkins

While I've never liked Palpatine being the big boss of the First Order in TROS (although all it's taken for me to like it a lot more are the crumbs and context dropped in The Mandalorian), the occult, mad science elements of Exegol were brilliant from top to bottom. I wish they'd leaned into the horror stuff even more, but the skin grafts/flesh mask Palpatine here was maybe too far for Lucasfilm to be comfortable with including.



[Image: Eqp-RC8W4AI2W7q?format=jpg&name=medium]


[Image: Epd2_JYW4AIItSg?format=jpg&name=medium]
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(12-31-2020, 03:29 PM)Nooj Wrote:
(12-31-2020, 03:11 PM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(12-31-2020, 02:39 PM)Nooj Wrote: And given the fact that none of these characters outside of Poe and Finn (and kinda Chewie) have faced Kylo/Ben, the drama is all metatextual.  None of it is set up to be dramatized in the first place.

I don't necessarily disagree, but the fact that we went two whole movies without Kylo interacting with any of the classic characters closest to his father after he killed him (other than Luke, briefly) seems like a giant missed opportunity.

Ditto for no interaction with Leia, but some of that was obviously unavoidable.  I suspect if Fisher had been alive when TROS was filmed, they would have had a scene together.

that's definitely what they were building towards with Leia being the legacy focus of the third movie

I don't see Kylo never meeting the other classic characters as any more of a lost opportunity than Vader and Leia getting no interaction post-sister-revelation.

It's just not the story.  And the idea of seeing Billy Dee Williams interact with Adam Driver in this context doesn't sound particularly tantalizing.  

Chewie is really the only other classic character that has SOME kind of grounding in an onscreen relationship with Kylo (pew pew pew!).  So that's one that could be paid off.... perhaps with something like THIS???

[Image: Eoplpq7W4AAEmsJ?format=jpg&name=900x900]


[Image: Eopl1aqXcAInep-?format=jpg&name=900x900][Image: EpSUbA_UwAcURcb?format=jpg&name=900x900]

ohohohohohoho
Are they going to... you know?



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(01-01-2021, 10:20 AM)mondguy Wrote: Sometimes movies just don't work for people.  That's it.  And it's not a moral or intellectual failing on their part.  If someone doesn't like TLJ I would pay more attention to how and why they didn't care for it rather than using that single data point to judge them on everything.

I don't think I've ever seen a larger gulf between what critics thought and what fans thought. Not one I can remember anyway.  The Last Jedi was reviewed really well. But....none of those critics have Luke Skywalker sheets on their beds. They were probably more than s tad indifferent to how he was portrayed. Or...at least indifferent compared to fanboys..

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(01-01-2021, 12:56 PM)fraid uh noman Wrote:
(01-01-2021, 10:20 AM)mondguy Wrote: Sometimes movies just don't work for people.  That's it.  And it's not a moral or intellectual failing on their part.  If someone doesn't like TLJ I would pay more attention to how and why they didn't care for it rather than using that single data point to judge them on everything.

I don't think I've ever seen a larger gulf between what critics thought and what fans thought. Not one I can remember anyway.  The Last Jedi was reviewed really well. But....none of those critics have Luke Skywalker sheets on their beds. They were probably more than s tad indifferent to how he was portrayed. Or...at least indifferent compared to fanboys..

I'm in an odd valley between the two as I thought TLJ was okay.  It wasn't a blight on humanity, nor was it the single greatest event in the history of film.  I initially came out thinking "I liked it, but not nearly as much as I thought I would".  Then I proceeded to watch the interwebs lose its damned mind.
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The Luke stuff is not the problem with TLJ (tommy lee jones).
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(01-01-2021, 01:29 PM)atomtastic Wrote: The Luke stuff is not the problem with TLJ (tommy lee jones).

I didn't say it was. But most of the people who have a real problem with the film would disagree with you. Doesn't make them right but...

(01-01-2021, 01:13 PM)mondguy Wrote:
(01-01-2021, 12:56 PM)fraid uh noman Wrote:
(01-01-2021, 10:20 AM)mondguy Wrote: Sometimes movies just don't work for people.  That's it.  And it's not a moral or intellectual failing on their part.  If someone doesn't like TLJ I would pay more attention to how and why they didn't care for it rather than using that single data point to judge them on everything.

I don't think I've ever seen a larger gulf between what critics thought and what fans thought. Not one I can remember anyway.  The Last Jedi was reviewed really well. But....none of those critics have Luke Skywalker sheets on their beds. They were probably more than s tad indifferent to how he was portrayed. Or...at least indifferent compared to fanboys..

I'm in an odd valley between the two as I thought TLJ was okay.  It wasn't a blight on humanity, nor was it the single greatest event in the history of film.  I initially came out thinking "I liked it, but not nearly as much as I thought I would".  Then I proceeded to watch the interwebs lose its damned mind.

That's not an odd valley. I don't think there's a single person here who would put it at either of those extremes..

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If into film Twitter you go, only pain will you find.
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(01-01-2021, 10:20 AM)mondguy Wrote: Sometimes movies just don't work for people.  That's it.  And it's not a moral or intellectual failing on their part.  If someone doesn't like TLJ I would pay more attention to how and why they didn't care for it rather than using that single data point to judge them on everything.

I have good friends who simply did not like that movie at all.  That itself is never a problem for me.

I became aware of the starwartheory guy from the copyright controversy over the music in his Vader short film.  He went pretty primadonna against Disney, accusing it of exploiting the work of true fans by monetizing his work in their favor via copyright claim (for having derivative versions of the Imperial March by his composers 'original' score).

But it was actually Warner/Chappelle Music label (which has the rights to starwar music) that did it. The label is known for already going copyright claim-happy on many starwar youtubers, even ones that don't feature any music (an AURALNAUTS video). 

His short film wasn't taken down. It was still available to see, just monetized into Warner/Chappelle's coffers (he and Lucasfilm already agreed it was ok to make the short film as long as he didn't monetize it).

He wasn't being specifically targeted by Disney. But he and his fans certainly stirred shit up as if that was the case.

Definitely got his impressively produced Vader short (which I found stenchily awful, to add another data point) a lot more attention.  And for his purposes, the 'outrage' over it did some good as Lucasfilm got Warner music to lift the copyright claim.

So I kinda tend to 'judge him' based on that whole episode. But I'm cool with him having an emotional reaction to seeing Luke as he wanted! But he seems to have turned that episode into an anti-Disney crusade video too.

http://starwarshub.net/2019/01/15/it-was...ell-music/

edit: I have no idea if he made any kind of retraction video about the whole copyright thing. If I recall correctly, I think he did a "THANK YOU THANK YOU LUCASFILM FOR BEING GOOD TO THE FANS!" after the copyright claim was lifted. But I don't know if he ever corrected/clarified everything he said before in order to clear the air.
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Another thing to keep in mind about Star Wars Theory, aside from the fact he appears to have continually advocated that his viewers be cool to each other over the TLJ divide, is that he was a Prequels kid.

The division during the post-TPM, pre-TFA era was distinct from the post-TLJ division in one vital respect - it was inter-generational. When seen from the PT kids' point of view, especially in terms of the online fandom, it amounted to OT adults bullying PT kids. The post-TLJ divide, for what it's worth, at least feels like a "fair match up" generationally speaking.

Skimming a few of Star Wars Theory's post-TLJ vids on that film I hear him say not only that fans should be cordial to each other no matter what their opinions are on that film, but also that TLJ is a good film even if he disagrees with its handling of the lore. PT-loving kids like Star Wars Theory never got to hear their films treated with as much respect as Star Wars Theory treats TLJ.

I put it to the room that for that reason alone Star Wars Theory is a better person and a better Star Wars fan than anyone who has ever said, written, drawn, thought or even dreamed anything bad about the PT.

THERE I SAID IT!
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so strange that he disagrees with the handling of the lore... when LAST JEDI is the film that actually engaged with prequel lore!

for being such a prequel kid, he seems to have latched onto 'classic luke' a ton
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Yeah, and I was fascinated that in his own "What If I Wrote TLJ?" thing he didn't shy away from Luke having fallen from grace into being a failure and a coward for a time. He didn't go to the old "Luke never quit! He was on a secret mission!" well. The only real change he made to Luke's story was that Luke didn't die in TLJ, I assume so that he could SuperJedi his way through (the then-unreleased) Episode IX.

But, even as fun as it is to be contrarian, I'm not about to defend the quality of his analysis. (Or his creative writing.) I can't pretend I'm on his wavelength with most of that stuff. Mostly I was responding to the bitterness and anger and disdain toward him in some of the posts in this thread, and trying to figure out where that comes from.
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Probably because he gets very Christensen at internet people mocking his tears
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He quit and became a farmer?
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You're with him. You brought him here to kill me!
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