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Star Wars IX: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-Release Discussion - Suffering Without End)
Quote:This is like George Lucas promising no more mediocre and schlocky Stars Wars sequels shortly after selling the franchise to Disney. Such a promise would be illusory.

Seems odd to conclude that that sentence is singling out The Last Jedi when it seems to me that it's saying that all of Star Wars is mediocre and schlocky.
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It's in the footnote.
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I just hope the 9th Circuit Court can move onto real issues, like is Die Hard is a Christmas movie?
I've got good news and I've got bad news. The bad news is I've lost my way. The good news is I'm way ahead of schedule!
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It still implies that the Star Wars sequels produced under George Lucas were also mediocre and schlocky.
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I assume that’s what the footnote was needed for heheh
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(06-05-2021, 10:30 PM)Chaz Rock City Wrote: I just hope the 9th Circuit Court can move onto real issues, like is Die Hard is a Christmas movie?

They would legally declare Die Hard is NOT a Christmas movie, because these people clearly are goofs.
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Not much of a ruling if it excludes TFA from the footnote.
Our sanitariums are full of men who think they're Napoleon... Or God.
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(06-05-2021, 09:32 PM)commodorejohn Wrote: Call me when the law finally recognizes TFA for the cotton-candy-coated dog turd that it is.

I have to imagine when everyone in the theater was grinning in delight, you were the one miserable person there looking like this.


[Image: tenor.gif]


Schwartz would have been in a separate theater.
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I was the voice crying in the wilderness before others finally saw the light, if that's what you mean.
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(06-06-2021, 03:51 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote:
(06-05-2021, 09:32 PM)commodorejohn Wrote: Call me when the law finally recognizes TFA for the cotton-candy-coated dog turd that it is.

I have to imagine when everyone in the theater was grinning in delight, you were the one miserable person there looking like this.


[Image: tenor.gif]


Schwartz would have been in a separate theater.

Fucking stop it.  We're not defending TFA for being vapidly crowd pleasing like that's a good thing when it knee caps your entire trilogy.  We're not doing that.
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I get liking TFA, I get disliking TFA; I don't get liking it and then disliking what came after it at all.

After TLJ, Simon Pegg said, “I must admit, watching [‘The Last Jedi’], the overriding feeling I got when I came out was, ‘I miss George Lucas.’ For all the complaining that I’d done about him in the prequels, there was something amazing about his imagination".

As if the film he was in, directed and written by his friend, wasn't by a gigantic margin the least imaginative of the 11 film series.

(06-03-2021, 07:16 PM)freeman Wrote: The last film was SO weird.  How do you arrive on "John Connor but this time as a woman!" with a straight face?  Like what kind of dumbass creative meetings led to that truly terrible set of ideas?

(06-03-2021, 07:23 PM)bradito Wrote: Your sequel should never undo the character arc from the previous movie. The T-800 sacrificed himself to save John. You can't kill off John in the first five seconds of your sequel and be like, "How's everyone enjoying their sequel that takes a giant shit on your beloved previous movie?"

I think more people have played John Connor than Dracula, so if you don't want Eddie Furlong coming back, Norman Reedus is right there. No one will mind if you recast.

I'm a big fan of the first two Terminators, which tell a totally satisfying, complete story by themselves. T2's ending is one of the most conclusive in all of sci-fi/fantasy cinema - it hinges on the characters ultimately undoing the premise of the series. 

Ripley might sacrifice herself to kill the queen at the end of Alien 3, but who's to say the Company are going to stop looking for xeno specimens? The Emperor might be dead at the end of Return of the Jedi, but there's a Republic and Jedi order to rebuild, and a whole galaxy of crime lords and evil warlords out there. Voldemort's dead, but any dickhead with magical talent could stir up shit again, and there's a whole hidden world of magic to explore. 

But what Sarah, John, and Arnie do in that film means no more Skynet, Judgement Day, or Terminizers. You can't do another one without fucking that (inevitably) better film over.

You *certainly* don't do another one by revealing that it didn't work out, that the child was brutally shot in front of his already traumatised mother who'd suffered and sacrificed in order to save him *and the world*, and then deciding that the same stuff is going to play out with less interesting characters. 

I don't get how writers and execs don't understand that, while audiences love sequels to beloved stories, they don't want to see those beloved stories rewritten in a 'Well, actually, fate wants Skynet to happen/the Jedi get wiped out again/Hammond decided that the hard lesson he learned about life finding a way wasn't actually that important' lazy fucking way.

Note: Alien 3 is the exception for me, because a) I knew for years before I ever saw Alien 3 that it was so miserable, and b) I feel that series suits a lot of grief and misery. I can understand why it pisses people off though.
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and by Cameron, no less!

Although nothing about killing off John Connor upset me

and I really don’t get the impression that a lot of people were upset by it either. They were simply not interested in it
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(06-06-2021, 08:46 AM)Nooj Wrote: and by Cameron, no less!

Although nothing about killing off John Connor upset me

and I really don’t get the impression that a lot of people were upset by it either.  They were simply not interested in it

I don't recall any massive blowback.  I ignored 'Dark Fate' in the theaters because it came across as the third "No!  This is the sequel to T2 that counts!  We're really serious this time!"


I wound up enjoying it on its own merits, but yeah, this franchise is dead.
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the only active blowback towards that choice I saw was from the kinds of youtube channels that look for any opportunity to go on screechy tirades about Hollywood catering to the ‘WOKE SJWs‘ that are ruining movies alongside Brie Larson and Kathleen Kennedy

I would actually agree that DARK FATE came across as a very desperately transparent attempt to keep a franchise relevant by way of going hard on the diversity angle. But I certainly wasn’t upset by the attempt, especially coming after T3, Salvation, and Genisys (and forwakens and ghostbusters2016!)

just seeing DARK FATE in theaters, I also thought the movie was generically watchable
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I avoided DARK FATE precisely because I heard what the opening scene was, and it sounded quite insulting to me as a huge fan of T2.

It also cemented by belief that nobody had any idea what to do with John after T2. Hence RISE OF THE MACHINES being a retread of T2, SALVATION almost killing him off, GENISYS making him the villain, and DARK FATE actually killing him off.

Which really sort of indicates that the story should have been over with T2.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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(06-06-2021, 05:22 AM)freeman Wrote:
(06-06-2021, 03:51 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote:
(06-05-2021, 09:32 PM)commodorejohn Wrote: Call me when the law finally recognizes TFA for the cotton-candy-coated dog turd that it is.

I have to imagine when everyone in the theater was grinning in delight, you were the one miserable person there looking like this.


[Image: tenor.gif]


Schwartz would have been in a separate theater.

Fucking stop it.  We're not defending TFA for being vapidly crowd pleasing like that's a good thing when it knee caps your entire trilogy.  We're not doing that.


Fuddy duddy

And to think, I thought it was simply overrated in its day, but I didn’t think it was “worse than the prequels”.
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The Prequels are a serious misfire of a sincere effort. TFA is a poorly-executed paint-by-numbers nothing made by committee. Which is objectively worse is a matter for debate, but which one actually made an effort isn't.
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Effort ultimately doesn’t matter.
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Effort won't make a bad film measure up to a good film. But between bad films, it at least helps to feel like you're watching something that the filmmaker actually gave a shit about.
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I was in an unusually good mood this past Friday, so I decided "what the hell" and gave TFA another good faith shot. I still felt that precise chain of events from back in 2015 of enjoying the first 30-40 minutes and then the creeping frustration setting in. Hell, I was actually bored to the point where I was checking my phone and getting up for a bathroom break without bothering to pause. And this was probably my third or fourth time of watching the movie (mostly) all the way through since 2015, so it's not like I was burned out on it.
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I’ve probably seen it all the way through the same amount of times as you, but in my case it’s a movie that got more enjoyable the more I saw it.
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I still think that TFA is visually the least interesting of the sequels..

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(06-06-2021, 11:37 AM)fraid uh noman Wrote: I still think that TFA is visually the least interesting of the sequels..
It was a definite "huh, wow" moment for me in the theater when I realized that our climactic spaceship battle really was being depicted primarily as a mosquito-swarm of randoms shooting randomly at randoms off in the background, despite the screenplay and score's best efforts to tell us that no really, this is totally like the ROTJ finale, right?
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I think both climactic confrontations in 8 and 9 are way more effective than what's in 7. And Rogue One is on a whole other plane of filmmaking from anything JJ Abrams has ever done..

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(06-06-2021, 11:35 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: I’ve probably seen it all the way through the same amount of times as you, but in my case it’s a movie that got more enjoyable the more I saw it.

I thought it was pretty pish the first time I saw it because I was waiting for it to actually be a continuation of the story. 

The first forty minutes are pretty terrific - I'd put the mis-step in when it suddenly cuts to Starkiller Base, revealing, over the next 10 minutes, that the interesting 'runaway trooper/Luke Skywalker map' plot is really a cover for a Death Star, an Emperor, a cantina, and Alderaan getting blown up again. 

As a paint-by-numbers, 'Let's chuck the OT into an algorithm and make what plops out' exercise, it is entertaining and well made - but that's the limit of its ambition, which is a gigantic missed opportunity. (Though Kylo Ren and everything to do with him is orders of magnitudes more interesting than the goodies, and is basically OT-quality stuff)
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(06-06-2021, 11:42 AM)commodorejohn Wrote:
(06-06-2021, 11:37 AM)fraid uh noman Wrote: I still think that TFA is visually the least interesting of the sequels..
It was a definite "huh, wow" moment for me in the theater when I realized that our climactic spaceship battle really was being depicted primarily as a mosquito-swarm of randoms shooting randomly at randoms off in the background, despite the screenplay and score's best efforts to tell us that no really, this is totally like the ROTJ finale, right?

The whole "jam a bunch of random stuff on screen in place of stakes or structure" has been a problem for some time.
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(06-06-2021, 10:53 AM)Belloq87 Wrote: Which really sort of indicates that the story should have been over with T2.

And that’s why none of the follow ups have been upsetting or insulting to me 

Adult John Connor is an abstraction that doesn’t interest me at all

And seeing a CG monster version of Kid Connor getting shot does nothing to me
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I think it's been made clear quite a few times by now that you and I have very different degrees of emotional attachment to various different things which manifest in different ways!
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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Those younger versions of the characters from the beginning of Terminator Dark Fate are the furthest from CGI monsters that I've ever seen. That scene is the gold standard for that effect as far as I'm concerned. It looked like an actual deleted scene from T2. Say what you will about the actual context of what is happening in that scene but the FX themselves were great..

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(06-06-2021, 01:57 PM)Belloq87 Wrote: I think it's been made clear quite a few times by now that you and I have very different degrees of emotional attachment to various different things which manifest in different ways!


I am VERY emotionally attached to John Connor as portrayed by Eddie Furlong.  I think he gives the perfect performance in that movie in the face of more 'senior' friends who think he gives an obnoxious 90s kid performance.

The movie is one of the first R rated movies I was given permission to watch at a time before I was really into movies.  

But my interest in the character stops there.  T2 and its characters are contained within itself by Cameron's design.  I never felt the need to see his further adventures nor get a whole movie about the Future War

(06-06-2021, 02:04 PM)fraid uh noman Wrote: Those younger versions of the characters from the beginning of Terminator Dark Fate are the furthest from CGI monsters that I've ever seen. That scene is the gold standard for that effect as far as I'm concerned. It looked like an actual deleted scene from T2. Say what you will about the actual context of what is happening in that scene but the FX themselves were great..

ooof no

amazing next step in terms of pushing the merging of tech and art? yes

being actually convincing to me?  no

they still came off like rubbery monsters
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I simply did not get an uncnny valley vibe from that scene in the slightest. That's just my opinion though. Hell...the young Leia in Risewalker a month later than Dark Fate looked SIGNIFICANTLY worse to me. I actually cringed when I saw the latest Leia one..

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they're ALL evil!!!
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(06-06-2021, 02:05 PM)Nooj Wrote: I never felt the need to see his further adventures nor get a whole movie about the Future War

I wasn't trying to imply I felt the contrary. They should have stopped with T2.

But I also don't easily excuse the various forms of character assassination (figuratively and literally!) that the series has performed since then!
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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I excuse it (only in terms of... "well, that didn't work out.  oh well")

because it's hard to expand upon what T2 closed off while staying 'true' to what general audiences 'want' out of a Terminator movie

honestly, it's impressive that Cameron was able to make T2 feel like it mattered as a sequel despite how well the original film closed itself off.  and that's largely due to PURE BLOCKBUSTER SHOWMANSHIP backed up by amazing craft.  But technically, even T2's basic plot is largely a 'family-friendly' rehash of the gritty/scrappy original.

But as you said... it should've stopped at T2.

This is the frequent problem with following up any contained storyline in a single movie.

Do you give GHOSTBUSTERS 2 a hard time because it takes the characters' gains back down to ZERO?  Or BOURNE SUPREMACY for cruelly killing off Marie?
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The novelty of Arnold now being the good guy was also a huge component.

But yes, T2 is the much bigger and slightly cuddlier spin on the first film. You can get away with that if you execute it really well (which T2 does).
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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