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Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) Post-Release
(07-27-2021, 03:13 PM)commodorejohn Wrote: I just enjoy the conversation!

then have a bit of respect for those who would appreciate you being able to actually talk about the topic from a more informed position

If I wanted to engage in a conversation this much, I would watch something I had no interest in just so that I could be more specific and up-to-date about it

(not that I expect you to watch them)
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(07-27-2021, 02:40 PM)commodorejohn Wrote: We've been over this before, but my disinterest stems from the people praising it and the people lambasting it all agreeing on the point that it's essentially a feature-length critical essay on fan culture and hero-worship in the form of a SW film - which is something I have zero fucking interest in watching. It may well make a good point and make it well, for all I know, but that's not what I go into a star war looking for - and, since the previous film, which I did see, was a big wet fart, it's not like I have this burning need to resolve all the dramatic tension it failed to generate going forward. At best, it wouldn't do much for me; at worst, it'd piss me off. So, ultimately, I'll just leave it pretty much alone.

I’m just saying give it a shot. Jeez.
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(07-27-2021, 03:17 PM)engineer Wrote: Do I remember it wrong?

Not at all. You are remembering it quite correctly:



"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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Given the ongoing activity in this thread (much like Palpatine, it is has somehow returned) the lack of branding on the thread title represents a profound missed opportunity, marketing-wise.

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(07-27-2021, 03:17 PM)engineer Wrote: Question about The First Order...   In TFA we find that the New Storm Troopers were all kids, taken at a young age, brainwashed and forced into First Order service, right?  Finn tells us his story and later in TROS he and Jannah bond over their shared experience of rebelling and escaping.  So that's where TFA's Storm Troopers come from and also ones from TLJ and TROS.

a while ago, I made a long post about the premise of the Finn character as presented in FORWAKENS

and the end result is that Finn makes no sense in that movie based on that scant bit of backstory we're given

One detail you didn't mention is that Kylo Ren and Hux have a short exchange early in the movie where Kylo mocks the efficiency of Hux's troops by referring to using clones again.  And Hux gets very defensive about his 'programmed from birth' soldiers.

But after the initial introduction, never again does Finn come across like anything we associate with a programmed/brainwashed child soldier.  He comes across more like some goofy naive kid that signed up for the wrong organization and had severe buyer's remorse.

So, on the topic of JJ again; great with the opening hook and short term gains.... but at the expense of long-term coherence.  But this time, it was right from the get-go (as opposed to finding out several seasons of TV afterwards)
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Yeah, Finn's characterization is incoherent with his supposed backstory right from the jump in TFA.
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(07-27-2021, 03:17 PM)engineer Wrote: Question about The First Order... In TFA we find that the New Storm Troopers were all kids, taken at a young age, brainwashed and forced into First Order service, right? Finn tells us his story and later in TROS he and Jannah bond over their shared experience of rebelling and escaping. So that's where TFA's Storm Troopers come from and also ones from TLJ and TROS.

But what about the people that did all that work? When Snoke first gained influence way back when (however he did that) and began his First Order operation, nobody had been kidnapped and brainwashed yet, right? So who did all that? The kidnapping, brainwashing and all? Who kept the First Order running up until those very first kidnapped kids grew up to become the very first First Order Storm Troopers? Who were the original flunkies of Snoke who did all the work we'd later see Storm Troopers and military guys doing? And what kept them in line? Money? Threat of death? Belief in whatever cause they were told they were working toward? Was this covered in a novel? Now after three films, we can say Mashed Potato Palpatine was involved, but I wonder what the story was supposed to have been before they decided to bring him back.

I keep thinking back to the unintentionally funny (to me) scenes of Domhnall Gleeson screaming his head off In TFA about destroying the Republic and thinking about two Monty Python-style First Order types in the back asking each other why they're even bothering to follow this screaming little nut ball and his bunch of reprogrammed kids shiny white ceramic armor.

Guy 1: "Is he going off about the Republic again?"
Guy 2: "Yeah, on and on about the Senate bowing to the First Order."
Guy 1: "He seems really mad. Must be interesting to have strong beliefs about things."
Guy 2: "Mmm... What are our beliefs, again? I mean, what's our cause?"
Guy 1: "Ah. Umm... 'Ruling,' I guess?"
Guy 2: "But once we rule, what then?"
Guy 1: "Probably more yelling."

Do I remember it wrong?

Apparently this was covered in one of the books. The kidnapping and conditioning program was created by Hux's father, and Hux later murdered him and took control of it. And the Imperial Remnant was still kicking around trying to rebuild well before Snoke showed up.
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I think there's a degree of emotional elasticity allowed in Star Wars films, particularly when it comes to characters' origins.

For instance: ANH spends a very effective moment with Luke following the gruesome murder of his parents... but then he goes through an exciting adventure over the next 3-4 days max (or minimum, a day and a half), and not once does he evidence the intense grieving he's presumably going through.

That's just set up though, and we see Luke having to deal with every major emotional beat he experiences after this.

I'm willing to cut Finn a bit of slack for being a goofball despite having been a stormtrooper. I think enough of his key decisions and character traits are grounded in his backstory (he wants away from the FO at all costs; he's hyper-attached to Rey - his first frend/crush - after knowing her for an afternoon; he doesn't seem to understand the scope of his 'I'm just here to get Rey' play) that his social skills and goofball shenanigans are acceptable.

If they'd characterised him more as 'escaped ex-child soldier' than 'lovable wise-cracking supporting protagonist seemingly quite informed by JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson's memories of wise-cracking 90s black supporting protagonists' he would have been a better character, no question.

Him blasting his pals I've no issue with. He and Poe are trying to escape; he's had a few hours to process his initial 'I'm not going to shoot these people' feelings; the people he's firing at aren't defenceless civilians; and they're trying to kill him.
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So Hux's father was the first leader of the First Order, pre-Snoke?
Geez, are all First Order high-ups just babies trying to out-do their Fathers?

Say what you will about the Jedi, but they sure seem to handle their relationships with their Dads better.
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(07-27-2021, 05:49 PM)rexbanner Wrote: For instance: ANH spends a very effective moment with Luke following the gruesome murder of his parents... but then he goes through an exciting adventure over the next 3-4 days max (or minimum, a day and a half), and not once does he evidence the intense grieving he's presumably going through.

He had about a week of time to grieve for his parental figures (and train with Obi-Wan) while they were flying to Alderaan.

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5-10 minutes from mos eisley to alderaan’s remains hahaha

damn, I wouldn’t want to be olord’s uncle

edit: thank you for editing, olord. I’m happy to have you as my nephew once again!
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Man, imagine spending a week cooped up in the Falcon with a man-bear and a Space '70s Van Guy.
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but the TRAINING!!!!
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I'm beginning to think that you guys like the original Star Wars movies more than the sequel trilogy.

But you also like hating the sequel trilogy more than you like the original trilogy.

So, from a certain point of view, you all kind of like the sequel trilogy more...
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makes sense to me!
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My one word descripts of them all (using only positive words).
Originals: Excellent!
Prequels: Pretty!
Sequels: Adventurous!
Rogue One: Cool!
Solo: Fun!
The Holiday Special: Wow.
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(07-27-2021, 05:52 PM)Nooj Wrote: 5-10 minutes from mos eisley to alderaan’s remains hahaha

damn, I wouldn’t want to be olord’s uncle

edit: thank you for editing, olord. I’m happy to have you as my nephew once again!

"Arthur let out a low groan. He was horrified to discover that the kick through hyperspace hadn't killed him. He was now six light years from the place that the Earth would have been if it still existed.

The Earth.

Visions of it swam sickeningly through his nauseated mind. There was no way his imagination could feel the impact of the whole Earth having gone, it was too big."
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"Surely this will be the last time someone talks about this movie.."
- someone in late '99

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(07-27-2021, 07:17 PM)engineer Wrote: My one word descripts of them all (using only positive words).
Originals: Excellent!
Prequels: Pretty!
Sequels: Adventurous!
Rogue One: Cool!
Solo: Fun!
The Holiday Special: Wow.

Ohh I can play this game!

Originals: Transformative!
Prequels: Choreographed!
Sequels: Profitable!
Rogue One: Great!
Solo: Marketable!
The Holiday Special: Hilarious!
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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The sequels left a lot of money on the table (many millions if not billions) by their colossal fuck ups that wouldn't have been acceptable in a high school writing class.
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TLJ didn't. TLJ NAILED it.
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If you mean a nail in the coffin of the franchise, sure.
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I hope they stop making Star Wars movies, so the healing can begin.
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Who needs to heal? Buncha babies..

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(07-27-2021, 09:37 PM)bradito Wrote: I hope they stop making Star Wars movies, so the healing can begin.

[Image: giphy.gif]
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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(07-27-2021, 01:54 PM)schwartz Wrote: I mean, I guess I can see how it is basically the one original idea that TFA brought to the table and did anything at all with, so kudos on that front. But having the main villain be lame is also kinda...lame.

It's almost like he never should have been made to shoulder the weight of being the "main" villain of the entire trilogy, or something!

In all seriousness, I think Kylo's foibles and insecurities -- as played by Driver -- are an incredibly compelling, fresh element for the Saga, and he's by far the best character in the Sequels overall. I also think VIII and IX don't do enough with that stuff, and so we were then treated to a rather abrupt rush to put him in place for the (necessary, in my view) return to the Light Side. After which, he promptly dies, so everything can be nice and tidy.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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(07-27-2021, 11:01 PM)Belloq87 Wrote: It's almost like he never should have been made to shoulder the weight of being the "main" villain of the entire trilogy, or something!

I mean, if only someone had been set up in the first film as the obvious candidate to be the "actual" villain while Kylo played a more complex, possibly "conflicted" role.

It might have been just crazy enough to work.

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No no no no NO fuck off.  Get to fuck with that shit.  NO.

We are NOT going to pretend Snoke was a great idea and we should have gone with Snoke.  Fuck that.  Kylo in an of himself was PLENTY enough villain to carry these movies, you both just severely lack imagination.
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Snoke sits in a chair as his primary defining characteristic.
Snoke misinterprets almost everything he Force Intuits.
Snoke is a monologue machine and little more.
Snoke doesn't see the betrayal and death coming.
Snoke ends up being basically a sea monkey in Palpatine's clone jar.

Still more interesting than Kylo Ren, Sullen Boy of Space.
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(07-27-2021, 11:26 PM)engineer Wrote: Snoke sits in a chair as his primary defining characteristic.
Snoke misinterprets almost everything he Force Intuits.
Snoke is a monologue machine and little more.
Snoke doesn't see the betrayal and death coming.
Snoke ends up being basically a sea monkey in Palpatine's clone jar.

Still more interesting than Kylo Ren, Sullen Boy of Space.

Everyone I want you to read this last sentence and REALLY let it sink in. People like this EXIST. They're walking around with the rest of us!!!
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Yeah, that's crazy talk. Snoke is "skipped breakfast to hastily scribble out a rough attempt at the assignment fifteen minutes before it was due" given mangled CGI flesh.
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'Cause I work magic like a magician
I add up like a mathematician
I'm a bank cashier, engineer
I wear cotton and I don't wear sheer
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(07-27-2021, 11:30 PM)freeman Wrote: Everyone I want you to read this last sentence and REALLY let it sink in.  People like this EXIST.  They're walking around with the rest of us!!!

Lighten up, freebie.  It's just words.  Snokey dokey?
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It's Freeman.
It's never just words to him.
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Snoke's a dumb name, right? We can all agree on that. Kylo Ren's kind of stupid. All the names in the ST sound like placeholders.

"Okay, we'll change this later but for now, it's... Poe."
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