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Papal Quitage
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTRan View Post

I often wonder what would happen if there was such a thing as uber-Imam, or 'Pope' in the Muslim religion.

There would definitely be a grand schism ala the Reformation. It would be interesting to see happen in real time although I have a feeling it would be very violent.

??

Pretty late on that one. The position is called the Caliph, and they already had that fight, which is why you got your Sunnis and your Shi'a.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Bain View Post

When it's the actual person at the head of the faith saying shit like "gay marriage is spawned by the Father of Lies" and that they should declare Holy War on anyone who endorses gay marriage it's a bit different though.

If an Imam did the same thing there would be outrage in the west "He's declaring Holy War".  blah blah fucking blah.

Actually, fuck all organised religion.  It's brought nothing but misery and backwards thinking to the world.

The major difference is that in the old days when the Pope called for a Holy War every major nation in Europe sent armies to the Levant. These days he'd be lucky to get one crank to write a nasty letter.

When radical Muslims call for a Jihad on the other hand the results tend towards murder and mutilation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VTRan View Post

As I see it the Pope has the power to 'make things right'...admit and apologize for their past fuckups.

One example could be if the Pope comes out and says: "hey, we're against abortion AND birth control but abortion is a bigger 'sin'...so seeing as birth control will prevent unnecessary abortions, we are now going to encourage it's use."

But, as with the much of the GOP, the church is considered to be infallible and admitting any fault will cause doubt...and 'doubt' is a big enemy of religion. If you instill doubt, you will start to have people questioning all the decisions made by the church (religion) and once that happens, you loose the power over the followers.

John Paul did apologize for the Church's complicity in the Holocaust, and Benedict re-stated that.

The whole infallibility thing....that edict from the 19th century actually refers to a set of specific teachings about the Bible by the Pope: it is not a blanket statement. Thus is the Pope states that Jesus died on the Cross for our Sins, that is considered an infallible statement. If the Pope says that Kevin Smith films are the apex of Western Cinema, that most certainly is not!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post

Pretty late on that one. The position is called the Caliph, and they already had that fight, which is why you got your Sunnis and your Shi'a.

..And within the Shia's the Twelvers and Sixers.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post

Pretty late on that one. The position is called the Caliph, and they already had that fight, which is why you got your Sunnis and your Shi'a.

I should have been more specific and included the word 'modern-day' in my point.


I've always viewed the Caliph as more of a political leader than religious despite the line dividing the two being practically non-existent in Islamic culture.

This and the fact that the modern world is considerably different than at the height of the caliphate's original reign.

I do know that if there was a possibility of a new, modern day Caliph being 'elected' (?), the right wing xtian fundamentalists would freak the fuck out.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

John Paul did apologize for the Church's complicity in the Holocaust, and Benedict re-stated that.

One down.....

They are getting better, I'll give you that. It took them 359 years to apologize for that whole Galileo/helio-centrism thing.

Quote:
The whole infallibility thing....that edict from the 19th century actually refers to a set of specific teachings about the Bible by the Pope: it is not a blanket statement. Thus is the Pope states that Jesus died on the Cross for our Sins, that is considered an infallible statement. If the Pope says that Kevin Smith films are the apex of Western Cinema, that most certainly is not!

While technically, there are some gray areas as far as the pope/church being infallible, the fact remains that there are many xtians that think the churches teachings are the the final word on how to live their lives and their ignorance as to the specifics you mentioned is what keeps the church going. The church (like Cheney) doesn't like to admit that they are wrong about something.

Given current discussions, I'm not going to touch the Kevin Smith statement.  : )

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTRan View Post

I do know that if there was a possibility of a new, modern day Caliph being 'elected' (?), the right wing xtian fundamentalists would freak the fuck out.

That was pretty much the entire Osama bin Laden project - create a new Caliphate, with a Sunni Caliph.

There is a book by Reza Aslan that argues what we are seeing today in the sectarian conflicts in the Middle East is the equivalent of the Protestant Reformation - a 30 Years War sort of deal, made all the more dire by geopolitical meddling.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post

That was pretty much the entire Osama bin Laden project - create a new Caliphate, with a Sunni Caliph.

There is a book by Reza Aslan that argues what we are seeing today in the sectarian conflicts in the Middle East is the equivalent of the Protestant Reformation - a 30 Years War sort of deal, made all the more dire by geopolitical meddling.

I remember reading something along these lines. It may have even been by Aslan.

IIRC, Turkey was going to be a major factor in a more modern-day secular Islamic state as even though the country is considered Islamic, it is highly secular (compared to Saudi Arabia for example, which is more of a Islamic capitalist state)

I also seem to remember that Turkey was having problems holding onto their secularism as there was a push by Islamic fundamentalists to assert power. They apparently think that the country is too 'western'.

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AK is mildly Islamist - about as fundamentalist as the GOP (read that as you will). The secularism issue in Turkey is more broadly defined by the Army (the most stalwart defender of Kemal's secular vision) and they have a great fondness for coups. So there's a latent tension there between the military and the Democratically elected Islamist party (AK) that sort of exploded in the Engenekon case, which is almost certainly based on fabricated evidence but in which the outlines - a deep-state coup attempt - may be accurate.

Would you like to know more?

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/215...an-and-his

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A[quote name="Zhukov" url="/community/t/146754/papal-quitage/100#post_3480345"]The thing is, its very difficult to separate the Papacy from the faith, its a very centralized thing. You could just as easily say "how can anyone justify defending the Presidency, after all the vile things they've done from the genocide of the Native Americans to bombing strikers to the Japanese internment camps to the Tuskegee Airmen and Guantanamo and rendition." I mean, you could say that, but that's a very broad brush, and many Americans are going to push back strongly against that sort of blanket characterization. Same deal with Catholics. You're line of reasoning leads to calling John Paul II a crime boss. Did fucked up shit happen under his watch? Yes, and it still hasn't been properly addressed. But there are 1.2 billion people on the planet in some way, shape or form related to this centralized beauracracy, and its quite a lot to lay everything bad that happens in that scope at the feet of a figurehead ensconced in a mummified city-state.


Disclaimer: I am not Catholic.
[/quote]

Neither am I, in the interest of disclosure. Here's how I look at it. As someone who has never been Catholic, but whose civil rights the Catholic Church actively lobbies against through hate group shadow companies like Brian Brown's National Organization for Marriage, I have a new Pope, too. And I'd be able to say the same thing if I were a member of the half of the human race who don't have a Y chromosome, because the Pope is the enemy of every woman alive. If you're to tell me that this Pope, or his Church, somehow deserve my respect, you need a better argument than "but they pull big numbers."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post


Neither am I, in the interest of disclosure. Here's how I look at it. As someone who has never been Catholic, but whose civil rights the Catholic Church actively lobbies against through hate group shadow companies like Brian Brown's National Organization for Marriage, I have a new Pope, too. And I'd be able to say the same thing if I were a member of the half of the human race who don't have a Y chromosome, because the Pope is the enemy of every woman alive. If you're to tell me that this Pope, or his Church, somehow deserve my respect, you need a better argument than "but they pull big numbers."

I was raised catholic and remain as such on several moral levels, but I still disagree with the church's pro life agenda; while Im against abortion in any form, I think is downright idiotic that the church doesnt approve of non abortion methods like contraceptives and condoms , for example.

Same goes for votes of celibacy (mandated, i have no problem with this on independent orders and monastic organizations) and the male dominated doctrine and organizational nature of the church; however, taking into account the nature and long history of the church, you cant deny that JP II was quite the revolutionary and renovator, and that electing Francis I, a jesuit with a far more reactionary and revolutionary nature, might be the right direction for the Church to finally caught with the times; it wont happen overnight, but in the last 50 years or so, the Church has changed a LOT when you consider its history and tradition.

Francis I might end up being a reformator, even if its a minor one, but trust me, a jesuit at the head of the church is a mind boggling advancement for the papacy.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoken View Post

I was raised catholic and remain as such on several moral levels, but I still disagree with the church's pro life agenda; while Im against abortion in any form, I think is downright idiotic that the church doesnt approve of non abortion methods like contraceptives and condoms , for example.

Same goes for votes of celibacy (mandated, i have no problem with this on independent orders and monastic organizations) and the male dominated doctrine and organizational nature of the church; however, taking into account the nature and long history of the church, you cant deny that JP II was quite the revolutionary and renovator, and that electing Francis I, a jesuit with a far more reactionary and revolutionary nature, might be the right direction for the Church to finally caught with the times; it wont happen overnight, but in the last 50 years or so, the Church has changed a LOT when you consider its history and tradition.

Francis I might end up being a reformator, even if its a minor one, but trust me, a jesuit at the head of the church is a mind boggling advancement for the papacy.

All this may be true, and I don't speak as a great authority on Catholic matters, but this charm offensive by the Vatican press office that has seemingly roped in the major news outlets is already making me feel a bit queasy.

"Hey! Our new Pope plays soccer! What a guy!"

"Hey! Our new Pope is down with the poor people (but hasn't said a word about deconstructing the privileged hierarchy of the national and international church institutions - STFU, ye godless heathen!)! He rocks!"

"Hey! our new Pope looks like Jim Bowen AND Woody Allen! Woot!"

Guardian as lone nay sayer - "er, guys, what about the allegations he was complicit in the human rights abuses and murders under the Argentine military junta?" - "Shut up. Shut uuup. Fucking commies."

Honestly, it's as if the global media has taken crazy pills and is wilfully ignoring the fact that he is an ultra-conservative and reactionary geriatric who has become head of an institutionally bigoted organisation that promotes literally fatal ignorance. Just because he doesn't come from Europe and likes sports.

I find it baffling. Genuinely, heartbreakingly baffling.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhp1608 View Post

Honestly, it's as if the global media has taken crazy pills and is wilfully ignoring the fact that he is an ultra-conservative and reactionary geriatric who has become head of an institutionally bigoted organisation that promotes literally fatal ignorance. Just because he doesn't come from Europe and likes sports.

I find it baffling. Genuinely, heartbreakingly baffling.

The media has clearly decided to focus on the positive aspects of his public figure following his election, since there will be plenty of time to bash the guy and the church in the future; its a welcome change from "OMG THE POPE WAS A NAZI/DARED OPPOSSE COMMUNISM!/IS ANTI GAY/FEMINISM" headlines that usually follow this kind of thing.

As for the link to argentina's military junta, they are not surprising given the church's rabid anti-socialism/communism agenda during the cold war.

However, his jesuit vows and vocation do speak volumes for reform in the church; so far he has shown a lot of disregard for some of the more glamorous and expensive church traditions, and he clearly comes from a more down to earth background than the previous incumbent (not at the level of JP II, though).

The thing you have to accept is that the church is not going to change overnight, but rather face smaller, slow reforms as time moves on, given the traditions and LONG history of it as an institution.

As a christian, i couldnt give a shit where he is from and what his hobbies are; the fact that he comes from one of the more modern and modest orders within the church is that makes me have more hope on him being the new Pope.

Plus, you cant blame the guy for being reactionary coming from one of the most fucked up countries in south america; the Kirchner's brand of populism has hurt Argentina's development and has caused a lot of pain and trouble to its people, and he's been a massive opponent of the goverment's policies and corruption.

Also, he hasnt been even a month since he was chosen, what do you expect? he's already made it VERY clear that current curia and vatican charges will remain for a temporary period of adjustment;  trust me, heads will roll this year in terms of positions within the church.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion...rsday.html

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Quote:

"NO TOUCHING!!!"

<br />

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A[quote name="Zhukov" url="/community/t/146754/papal-quitage/100#post_3486598"]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion...rsday.html
[/quote]

Bold new leadership or a 77 year old sexually repressed man with a foot fetish?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post


Bold new leadership or a 77 year old sexually repressed man with a foot fetish?


this might be in bad taste....ah, fuck it.

(is there anything that some AD doesn't improve?)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post


Bold new leadership or a 77 year old sexually repressed man with a foot fetish?

Someone just sorted their retirement plan:

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AWell I don't know about you guys, but I believe in the Picard. He lives far above the clouds and has the power to banish cold winters!
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<br />

<br />

"Yeah, but washing another man's feet is one thing but kissing them is some intimate shit & that motherfucka oughta known better... "

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All the feet kissing/washing is getting a bit much, but then again, there are worse proclivities for a man in that line of work. When he starts asking for Honey Boo Boo's used gym shoes is when we need to start getting worried.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhp1608 View Post

Hey! our new Pope looks like Jim Bowen

"Misogyny and homophobia, now that's safe..."

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Workyticket View Post

Someone just sorted their retirement plan:


  His sermons would be brilliant! I'm sure one of them would be how the Godfather films show what happens to a man who can not forgive others.

I've got good news and I've got bad news. The bad news is that I have lost my way. The good news is that I'm way ahead of schedule.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Decade View Post

<br />

Hm, kissing the feet of a poor (?) person while holding the person's foot over a Solid Silver bowel. Point: missed.

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A[quote name="Cylon Baby" url="/community/t/146754/papal-quitage/100#post_3487244"]

Hm, kissing the feet of a poor (?) person while holding the person's foot over a Solid Silver bowel. Point: missed.
[/quote]

Just give that guy the bowl and you'll be doing him a solid. He can sell it for money or use it for food. I am not sure what benefit this guy is supposed to derive from being foot fondled.

I mean, seriously, I know it's a symbolic gesture, but the world has actual problems that could use concrete solutions and this just seems like a pointlessly antiquated self serving display.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post


 this just seems like a pointlessly antiquated self serving display.

organised religion in general?

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AThe "poor person" is an incarcerated youth, and they very much appreciated the visit from the Pope.

When was the last time you paid a visit to your local prison to comfort those behind bars?

I rather the Pope do this modestly at a juvenile jail than what traditionally happens, which is to do this ceremony in a more elaborate fashion and with clergy instead of people who feel like they've been forgotten.
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If the Pope really wants to do something 'noble', he should reverse the church's stance regarding birth control. Then he can address the inherent misogyny/sexism that has been ingrained in the church since it's inception.

I wouldn't mind seeing him renounce the tax-free status the church enjoys as well.

And before anyone says that he couldn't do all these things, the pope is about as close as you can get to having an authoritarian leader...if he wants to do something, he could get it done.

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 I agree with you about the tax free status.

I've got good news and I've got bad news. The bad news is that I have lost my way. The good news is that I'm way ahead of schedule.
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A[quote name="ElCapitanAmerica" url="/community/t/146754/papal-quitage/100#post_3487458"]The "poor person" is an incarcerated youth, and they very much appreciated the visit from the Pope.

When was the last time you paid a visit to your local prison to comfort those behind bars?

I rather the Pope do this modestly at a juvenile jail than what traditionally happens, which is to do this ceremony in a more elaborate fashion and with clergy instead of people who feel like they've been forgotten.[/quote]

I don't mean to be snotty, but I am going to have to dispute the idea this foot business is of any comfort whatsoever to those prisoners. This is the year 2013, it's as bizarre and outdated a gesture as you could ask for. Seriously those guys would probably get more out of it if the pope just stopped by to talk about football or something.

When is the last time I went to a prison to touch the feet of the prisoners? Never, I'm afraid to say. I don't think the prisoners have been deprived of a (literally?) magical experience.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post


I don't mean to be snotty, but I am going to have to dispute the idea this foot business is of any comfort whatsoever to those prisoners. This is the year 2013, it's as bizarre and outdated a gesture as you could ask for. Seriously those guys would probably get more out of it if the pope just stopped by to talk about football or something.

When is the last time I went to a prison to touch the feet of the prisoners? Never, I'm afraid to say. I don't think the prisoners have been deprived of a (literally?) magical experience.

Maybe, but he was there visiting them (and yes, he brought along food).

I was reading the letters from other youth in a similar situation, many wishing he'd visit them, so I don't think it'd be hard to imagine that for some ... the gesture would be appreciate it. I see the point, you don't, maybe somebody should ask them. I would hope if any of them felt like you, they'd be given the choice to opt out.

I remember visiting a jail when I was thinking of joining the priesthood, and the guy he visited really appreciated the "magical experience", and it seemed like visiting those who society forget so quickly is a generally good thing, even if I didn't believe the same. I don't know, it's just one of those things that seems obvious to me, but that may be because I actually went through it (BTW, haven't done it in a long time, but seeing the Pope doing it has me thinking ...).

The other aspect is that it's a humbling experience, just like Pope Francis answered the youth who asked him why he visited. He has to remind himself he's there to serve everybody, but more importantly serve those who we all forget and are marginalized. He was invited to visit a detention center by the Italian minister of criminal justice, so I rather see him doing this than the more traditional Holy Thursday ceremony that Pope's are expected to perform.

I don't know if it's worth mentioning the symbolic significance of his inclusion of Muslim youths and the girls in the ceremony, since the whole thing has no significance to you, but it warms my heart how it's irking the Traditionalist who missed the whole point of Jesus Christ.

Feliz Resurrección de Resurreccion!

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Going back to the original topic of this, was talking to a priest friend of mine who is a very outspoken critic of all things John Paul II. He was pointing out something that I think will turn out to be true, the precedent that Benedict set by resigning is here to stay. It's very likely we'll be seeing more elderly Popes retire before senility takes it's mental and irreversible toll. He was really ranting against JPII for holding on while he was not functional, but I had to remind him to take it easy on the guy, since resignation was not an option once he affected so heavily by Parkinson. One of the criteria for resignation is that the Pontiff has to will and chose it, which was too late for JPII even if he wanted to.

Very likely that Benedict had JPII's last days in mind when he quit ahead that happening to him too.

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AMaybe......however I still say the primary reason was because of the potential scandals that are bound to come out. Everything I've read seems to indicate they are mass corruption going on an wouldn't be suprised if they come out soon. His health and age might have come into play but I feel ultimately him resigning had more to do with scandals than anything else.
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We'll let history decide that, but I was surprised that people were surprised he quit. It was widely speculated he was considering resigning due to health, even before Vatileaks.

I kind of don't get the whole "scandal" speculation on his resignation BTW. He's still there in Castel Gandolfo, and the mere fact he's there doesn't historically absolve him of any related scandal, the fact that he resigned if it was for that reason would actually make it worse from his perspective.

Update: Forgot to mention, I'm assuming you've seen the obvious frail health B16 is in if you look at the most recent videos (specially when he met Pope Francis)

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