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MAN, GEORGE R.R. MARTIN SOUNDS STRESSED
#1
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#2
I don't blame him. It must be a hellish nightmare to create anything beloved, and while I'm sure he deeply appreciates that the show brought his story to hundreds of millions of people who'd've never experienced it otherwise, and while I'm sure he appreciates the cash, it must be extraordinarily bittersweet to have someone tell the end of your story for you.

The 'Martin's just being lazy' people aren't people who've ever tried to write themselves, and I imagine that the strengths of Martin's stories - their expansiveness, the sheer, insane level of cool stuff going on in them, the number of terrific characters - are exactly what's hindering his progress.

ASoIaF would need to last for four more books to give each plotline and character their dues - the show, the ending of which has far, far more to like in it that there is to be mildly annoyed by (because I'm an adult with a sense of fucking perspective) is what it looks like when you decide you have to start resolving the story, rather than, as Martin's instincts seem to be, to let it resolve naturally.
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#3
(08-18-2019, 02:33 PM)rexbanner Wrote: The 'Martin's just being lazy' people aren't people who've ever tried to write themselves, and I imagine that the strengths of Martin's stories - their expansiveness, the sheer, insane level of cool stuff going on in them, the number of terrific characters - are exactly what's hindering his progress.

So you've not paid attention to GRRM willingly and consistently tackling side project after side project? 

And while I'm not really published, I do write. And I recognize that it's a much more difficult task to do well (especially if you have high internal standards) than many folk would credit.

BUT.

GRRM was successful enough, PRE-TV SERIES, to write full time for a living. To the point of buying a house across the street solely for the writing space/focus.

I don't think he's "lazy." He is, by his own admission, not an outliner or planner nor a very disciplined writer.

And EIGHT years between books is simply a joke. Especially given the dip in quality the series experienced in books 4 and 5, Overlord's continued defense of book 5 notwithstanding.

The man owes me and us nothing. So he's of course welcome to take as long as he wants. But as someone who's helped fund his lifestyle and success, I'm free to criticize the lack of output in the actual series that's granted him this fame and freedom.

He's never finishing the series. I do think we at some point get a book 6 from him, but (not to be morbid) I think he'll pass before finishing the series.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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#4
(08-18-2019, 02:33 PM)rexbanner Wrote: the show, the ending of which has far, far more to like in it that there is to be mildly annoyed by (because I'm an adult with a sense of fucking perspective)

Ha ha yes. God that GOT thread became insufferable.
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#5
(08-18-2019, 03:05 PM)MichaelM Wrote: So you've not paid attention to GRRM willingly and consistently tackling side project after side project? 

He was able to knock out Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords, two enormous books, in two years each. I think his willingness to do side projects is so that he can produce/do something while he's hung up on cracking Winds of Winter; I don't think he's spending time on them that he'd otherwise be dedicating to it. In interviews I've read, Martin's talked about throwing out drafts of what became Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons. I think it's a case of the story getting too big, and him getting a bit weary of it - he's been living with since the early 90s. 

I hope he does finish them, but if all I get from ASoIaF was several thousand pages of gripping reading (I'm a pretty big reader, and I spend my life chasing the kind of literary highs you get from sequences like the Red Wedding and the Battle of Blackwater) and 8 years of extraordinarily entertaining TV and chat with friends, family, and colleagues about it, then I'll still feel the £50 I spent on the books and the Season 7 boxset (to refresh before Season 8) was an incredibly sweet deal. 

At this point, I'm only really sad that he's likely to die unsatisfied with where he's left it.
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#6
If you invite me to dinner and tell me I'm going to get four courses and dessert, sure, you don't *owe* me dessert. But don't have me sit at the table for eight hours assuring me it's coming eventually.
Just this guy, you know?
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#7
(08-18-2019, 03:05 PM)MichaelM Wrote: And EIGHT years between books is simply a joke. Especially given the dip in quality the series experienced in books 4 and 5, Overlord's continued defense of book 5 notwithstanding.

The man owes me and us nothing. 

Second halfish of book 5 was great.  I would note this part of the story matches up with the lauded final 2-3 episodes of show season five and much of the well-received season six.  

And I agree he doesn't owe his readers anything.  Rather, he owes them everything.

Valar Dohaeris.

(08-18-2019, 07:26 PM)Richard Dickson Wrote: If you invite me to dinner and tell me I'm going to get four courses and dessert, sure, you don't *owe* me dessert.  But don't have me sit at the table for eight hours assuring me it's coming eventually.

I am not your dessert-serving bitch!

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#8
My job is hard I’m just going to sit around and like, not do it.

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#9
(08-18-2019, 02:33 PM)rexbanner Wrote: It must be a hellish nightmare to create anything beloved ...

[Image: giphy.gif?cid=790b7611115ddf7cab5716fc18...=giphy.gif]
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#10
It's not just that somebody told the ending to his story before he could, it's that they did it badly and in a fashion and style not consistent with the world he built over decades of careful consideration.

It's like if Ghostbusters got cut in half and the back end was done by the 2016 team and the humor style and story quality completely changed and dropped off a cliff. He has every right to be super annoyed his baby was effectively ruined.
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#11
I dunno... it seems like it was Martin's choice to give GoT's writers very little info on where he saw the story headed. By all accounts, he gave them three plot points to hit (Hodor, Dany's turn, King Bran), and not much else.

He could've offered more. Hell, he could've written an outline or even a script for the finale - I bet HBO would've been thrilled. Or he could've gone the other way, given them nothing and told them that the show was now their story, not his, and let them take it wherever they saw fit.

He chose the half-measure of giving them just enough rope to hang themselves in a story whose nuances they were ill-equipped to express. Either he made a terrible mistake and spoiled his books' ending for a weak incarnation... or he made a brilliant choice and set up his eventual written version to look brilliant by comparison regardless of its actual merit.

Because now book-readers and show-watchers alike are rooting for him to knock it out of the park. If he does get to that last book, the sales numbers are going to be insane.
Gamertag: Tweakee
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#12
If is an awfully important word.
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#13
Hodor is fine, Dany's turn has been fairly well laid out already in the novels (far moreso than in the TV show), but I'm sorry, unless there are some fucking MASSIVE changes to the society of Westeros ... which I have a hard time seeing as believable ... King Bran will never, ever, ever make a lick of sense (unless he's some sort of fucking evil sorcerer able to seize control through magic ...).

And, I hate to say it, but King Bran seems like the sort of thing that a guy writing to his personal political/sociological preferences would do rather than someone trying to stay "true" to the characters and world he's created.

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#14
You just don't get it.
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#15
I’m guessing the TV show paid him enough that he and probably his grandchildren never, ever have to work another day in their life. So exactly how much impetus is there really to write? Especially as the story has ended - maybe not the way he wanted, but to be fair the TV show far outshone his books so the who GoT thing is over now. He probably just can’t be arsed now and is only writing to see out his contract or because he feels obliged to. GoT is all but done now and he probably knows that.
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#16
Does he even have kids?
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#17
(08-19-2019, 03:13 AM)farsight Wrote: I dunno... it seems like it was Martin's choice to give GoT's writers very little info on where he saw the story headed. By all accounts, he gave them three plot points to hit (Hodor, Dany's turn, King Bran), and not much else.

He could've offered more. Hell, he could've written an outline or even a script for the finale - I bet HBO would've been thrilled. Or he could've gone the other way, given them nothing and told them that the show was now their story, not his, and let them take it wherever they saw fit.

I'm pretty sure he didn't offer them more because he doesn't have it. GRRM doesn't outline. He barely plans. He knows the general endgoal but none of the milestones along the way.

It's still on D&D for choosing to end things quickly. But I'm pretty confident in guessing that once they moved past book 5, they were very much on their own WRT hitting the big points provided by GRRM.

(08-19-2019, 03:52 AM)freeman Wrote: You just don't get it.






(08-19-2019, 04:00 AM)freeman Wrote: Does he even have kids?

He does not.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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#18
I'm almost glad they rushed it, because if the options were a less rushed shitty ending or what we got, I'll take what we got. Rushing it was a big issue with the ending but these guys were simply not capable of making the creative choices and more generous time allotment would not change that.
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#19
Freeman, what happens if he ever releases more books and the Dany heel turn is still there? How will you go on with life?
If you're happy, you're not paying attention.

Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny: 
Glad that you guys worked that out amongst yourselves.

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#20
(08-19-2019, 02:12 PM)Neil Spurn Wrote: Freeman, what happens if he ever releases more books and the Dany heel turn is still there?  How will you go on with life?

He'll whine on the internet. 

I have always felt, if a particular work of media has disappointed you, that you just acknowledge it and then move on.

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#21
I used to subscribe to the theory that Martin’s next books would differ from the show in order for him to remain relevant.

I now believe he is reluctant to finish his story because it was going to follow the same plot and he’s worried about the backlash.

If he actually has writer’s block (which I don’t believe) he could have easily requested the help from the two fans that helped him write the World of Ice and Fire compendium.

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#22
Writer's block? Maybe for the actual series.

But he has produced a 1200ish pages of (mostly great) ASOIAF stuff for the Targaryen history and Dunk and Egg.

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#23
Don't forget the cookbook.

It's very important.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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#24
So many trenchers . . .
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#25
(08-19-2019, 02:12 PM)Neil Spurn Wrote: Freeman, what happens if he ever releases more books and the Dany heel turn is still there?  How will you go on with life?

Of course it'll still be there. It was one of the things Martin laid out himself.

There's a million ways to get to Evil Twin Dany, and many of them work. The show just picked a lazy, nonsensical path to get there.

It sounds like the books have already done a lot more to set up Dany as unstable and dangerous, which is probably why book people seemed much more onboard with her heel turn.

Heck, it's even possible that the books make King Bran work. I mean, in them he could keep a shred of humanity, actually do something during the war, and not appear to have used millions of deaths to manipulate himself on to the throne. Ya know, the little details!
Gamertag: Tweakee
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#26
(08-19-2019, 02:34 PM)turingmachine75 Wrote: So many trenchers . . .

Man, I'm in the mood to sop up some thick, greasy, meat chunk'ed gravy out of a trencher using my lobstered gauntlets.  The gravy will, of course, run down my chin and into my beard.

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#27
(08-19-2019, 04:48 PM)Overlord Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 02:34 PM)turingmachine75 Wrote: So many trenchers . . .

Man, I'm in the mood to sop up some thick, greasy, meat chunk'ed gravy out of a trencher using my lobstered gauntlets.  The gravy will, of course, run down my chin and into my beard.

Just as long as you keep it out of that mummer's widow's peak.
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#28
Of all the bad GOT takes I've seen over the years, "GRMM is only faking writer's block, because reasons" deserves some kind of special award.
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#29
(08-19-2019, 02:20 PM)catartik Wrote: If he actually has writer’s block (which I don’t believe) he could have easily requested the help from the two fans that helped him write the World of Ice and Fire compendium.

This suggests a somewhat alternative understanding of what writer's block is to what I'm familiar with. Getting two obsessive fans to help you pore through your books and hash out a couple of background details for an ancillary book is might different from having them help you write the end of the series.

They're not writers, and writing Westerospedia isn't the same as helping write a piece of very complicated fantasy drama; they're very dedicated fans with no professional experience writing fiction, which is a disaster waiting to happen; and a writer's pride in their work, and their relationship to that work as an expression of themselves, is going to, quite rightfully, conflict with getting help. GRRM will want it to be his, not his plus so and so (and I'd much, much, MUCH rather have it stay unfinished than have it be midwived by other authors).
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#30
(08-19-2019, 02:12 PM)Neil Spurn Wrote: Freeman, what happens if he ever releases more books and the Dany heel turn is still there? How will you go on with life?

I don't give a shit about the books, and they noticeably get worse as they go on. Outside of a Lindsay Ellis having some autopsy thoughts I'm over it.

Feel free to keep being snarky dicks though, it's a really great look for you.

(08-19-2019, 02:22 PM)Overlord Wrote: But he has produced a 1200ish pages of (mostly great) ASOIAF stuff

I fucking hate every single time you say this.
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#31
Freeman! I’m sorry man, I was never trying to be a dick about it. It just feels like the “heel turn” was a bridge too far and killed any enjoyment you had for a series that had previously been great entertainment, and my point was that it was always the source material’s author’s original intention. I’m happy to quibble on the ham-fisted way the adaptors attempted to portray it though.
If you're happy, you're not paying attention.

Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny: 
Glad that you guys worked that out amongst yourselves.

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#32
It's funny(to me) that I've got this reputation as the hater guy after I loathed season 8, because EVEEEEERYONE else was pretty consistently shitting on the sharp downturn of logic.  For example I now fully acknowledge(especially in retrospect) how insanely stupid and badly conceived and lazily thought out the entire wight hunt story line was, but I was one of the very few people saying "just see where it's going/they have detailed bullet points for the ending and that will be much more well realized" etc.

It was something about the way season 8 sort of realized "Oh wait, we're kind of doing classic fantasy trope show the last few seasons, we should go back to what made GoT famous and murder lots of people and make things really shocking and unhappy" that it completely and utterly lost me.  It's one thing to go from a social political show to a less good fantasy show.  It was another thing to go from a less good fantasy show back to a REALLY bad REALLY illogical attempt at the social political thing that made Martins story famous to begin with.

If you fuck up doing classic fantasy?  Fine.  Fair enough. 

But if you fuck up trying to deconstruct fantasy tropes and do this sort of post modern deconstruction and completely and utterly fall flat on your fucking face?  A really bad look.  Ask BvS.
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#33
(08-19-2019, 02:22 PM)Overlord Wrote: But he has produced a 1200ish pages of (mostly great) ASOIAF stuff for the Targaryen history and Dunk and Egg.

 1200 pages that somehow failed to move the actual current story ahead one iota.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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#34
That's exactly why I hate it when Overlord praises that fucking thing.

It's supposed to make us feel better that his writing is still high quality when it's being used on stuff that many fans don't care about? I adore the Stormlight Archive and the world and it's history, but I'd never go read a bible of just lore no matter how good it was.
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#35
(08-19-2019, 08:31 PM)freeman Wrote: It's funny(to me) that I've got this reputation as the hater guy after I loathed season 8, because EVEEEEERYONE else was pretty consistently shitting on the sharp downturn of logic. 

Yeah, I was wasting energy connecting the dots for the writers just a few weeks before the end.

This isn't like LOST, where a large portion of its criticism came from people who had turned on it seasons earlier or hadn't even watched the show in -years-. It's not like The Walking Dead, where I think people are more disappointed when it DOESN'T suck.

I think the vast majority of viewers WANTED GoT to blow their doors off. I also think most of us expected an ending far DARKER than what we got. We were rooting for it, and we were okay with a bittersweet taste.

I fully expected to enjoy GoT's final season a LOT more than Avengers. I was here predicting Dany would die before the final season started.

But bad is bad, man.
Gamertag: Tweakee
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