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KNIVES OUT Post-Release Discussion
You're so kind. Such a nice person.

WHAT A SUCKER!
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(05-08-2021, 02:03 AM)Nooj Wrote: because I'm bored at work........

if shan wants to play the box-office game on this topic because they missed out on it the first time, we can do that

If you want to compare how these trilogies performed in their original theatrical runs, here are the official grosses with the first entry of each trilogy being the baseline:  (correct me if any of these figures or calculations are wrong)

figures are from this page:
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/franchise/...rs_table_2



forwakens..... $936.6 million (100%)
last jedi.........$620.1 million (66.2%)
risewalker......$515.2 million (55%)

star war........$307.2 million (100%)
empire..........$209.3 million (68.1%)
jedi...............$252.5 million (82.2%)

phantom.......$431.1 million (100%)
clones...........$302.2 million (70%)
sith...............$380.3 million (88.2%)

it seems like EMPIRE, CLONES, and LAST JEDI were pretty close in terms of how much the gross dropped from the respective previous entries

by your logic, does that make EMPIRE a mediocre entry?

is CLONES the greatest second chapter of the three trilogies at 70%?


for fun, I went stupid deeper and adjusted each entry of the original trilogy by calculating its inflation between their release years corresponding with their respective sequel trilogy entries' release years

star war........$1.2 billion      (1977 to 2015)  (100%)  
empire..........$622.9 million (1980 to 2017)  (51.8%)
jedi...............$648.3 million (1983 to 2019)  (53.9%)

based on this, LAST JEDI is obviously superior to EMPIRE as a second chapter in their respective trilogies.  pretty silly, no?

next time, we can discuss the topic of REVIEW BOMBING rottentomatoes when it came to LAST JEDI's controversial choices!  this movie got people PASSIONATE!

Nooj, I think I like you more than anyone else here. Your never ending sense of bounding optimism really comes across in the written word and since I discovered ProZD's Youtube channel, that's how I imagine you sound like with that deep booming impressive voice of Great Import.

Having said all that, now I have to Fuck You Up.

Film releases back in the days of Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back weren't like they were these days - especially in the days before the VCR. So in the case of these two films, not were they in the cinema a lot longer, they also didn't really have the huge opening weekends and subsequent drop offs - it was more like Titanic's pattern of box office.

Finally (and most pertinently), both Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back had a series of rolling rereleases so really what you need to do is compare Star Wars and its initial release versus The Empire Strikes Back's initial release as those totals are all the releases (over a number of years) put together. Even then, due to a number of other variables some of which were touched upon, they're still not completely comparable to the film releases today.

Anyway, Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back are both on the list of those films to be preserved by the Library of Congress (and presumably stored in a better salt mine than the one which had Event Horizon's deleted films stored) while I once saw someone on a Youtube video smash a BluRay of The Last Jedi with a hammer and then take a power drill to it.

Now this way to The Last Jedi thread please ------>

(I was never here!)
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(05-08-2021, 02:36 AM)shan Wrote:
(05-08-2021, 02:03 AM)Nooj Wrote: because I'm bored at work........

if shan wants to play the box-office game on this topic because they missed out on it the first time, we can do that

If you want to compare how these trilogies performed in their original theatrical runs, here are the official grosses with the first entry of each trilogy being the baseline:  (correct me if any of these figures or calculations are wrong)

figures are from this page:
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/franchise/...rs_table_2



forwakens..... $936.6 million (100%)
last jedi.........$620.1 million (66.2%)
risewalker......$515.2 million (55%)

star war........$307.2 million (100%)
empire..........$209.3 million (68.1%)
jedi...............$252.5 million (82.2%)

phantom.......$431.1 million (100%)
clones...........$302.2 million (70%)
sith...............$380.3 million (88.2%)

it seems like EMPIRE, CLONES, and LAST JEDI were pretty close in terms of how much the gross dropped from the respective previous entries

by your logic, does that make EMPIRE a mediocre entry?

is CLONES the greatest second chapter of the three trilogies at 70%?


for fun, I went stupid deeper and adjusted each entry of the original trilogy by calculating its inflation between their release years corresponding with their respective sequel trilogy entries' release years

star war........$1.2 billion      (1977 to 2015)  (100%)   
empire..........$622.9 million (1980 to 2017)  (51.8%)
jedi...............$648.3 million (1983 to 2019)  (53.9%)

based on this, LAST JEDI is obviously superior to EMPIRE as a second chapter in their respective trilogies.  pretty silly, no?

next time, we can discuss the topic of REVIEW BOMBING rottentomatoes when it came to LAST JEDI's controversial choices!  this movie got people PASSIONATE!

Nooj, I think I like you more than anyone else here. Your never ending sense of bounding optimism really comes across in the written word and since I discovered ProZD's Youtube channel, that's how I imagine you sound like with that deep booming impressive voice of Great Import.

Having said all that, now I have to Fuck You Up.

Film releases back in the days of Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back weren't like they were these days - especially in the days before the VCR. So in the case of these two films, not were they in the cinema a lot longer, they also didn't really have the huge opening weekends and subsequent drop offs - it was more like Titanic's pattern of box office.

Finally (and most pertinently), both Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back had a series of rolling rereleases so really what you need to do is compare Star Wars and its initial release versus The Empire Strikes Back's initial release as those totals are all the releases (over a number of years) put together. Even then, due to a number of other variables some of which were touched upon, they're still not completely comparable to the film releases today.

Anyway, Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back are both on the list of those films to be preserved by the Library of Congress (and presumably stored in a better salt mine than the one which had Event Horizon's deleted films stored) while I once saw someone on a Youtube video smash a BluRay of The Last Jedi with a hammer and then take a power drill to it.

Now this way to The Last Jedi thread please ------>

(I was never here!)


You lost me at all Asian people are the same.

Monster.
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I wondered if shan would bring up the rolling releases thing (I believe olord covered it when the topic was discussed without shan before)

Why would it fuck me up?  Of course none of these are directly comparable.  That's why I said "pretty silly, no?" But that's the game.

And yet you ignore the consistent second entry drop-off pattern of the prequel trilogy completely.  bad form

In terms of variables, you can also look at the competition forwakens had vs what last jedi had:

forwakens was up against stuff like DADDY'S HOME, SISTERS, ALVIN AND THE CHIPMUNKS 4

last jedi actually had some major competition with the surprise success of JUMANJI and GREATEST SHOWMAN

risewalker went up against JUMANJI 2 (or is it 3?) and FROZEN2

I could also bring attention to the grosses from the 1997 special edition releases of the original trilogy, in which had a comparable number of theaters showing each movie.  This was at a time when all three movies had already been mainstays on home video release and EMPIRE's estimation had (I believe) gone up since its original release, while JEDI had dropped a bit in estimation (ewoks and stuff)

star war...... $138.2 million (100%)
empire.........$67.6 million   (48.8%)
jedi..............$45.5 million   (32.9%)

And despite that, EMPIRE's percentage drops (and JEDI's even more).  I guess being chosen for the library of congress doesn't mean much to people wanting to pay for a ticket to watch mediocrity.

You don't even bother to bring up the fact that the HUGE outlier in this comparison is the fact that RISEWALKER breaks the pattern of the grosses of the third and final entry of each trilogy surpassing that of the second.  And there are a lot of factors at play there.  I don't think there's any question that audiences got burnt out on star war by 2019 due to a combination of...

-the toxic reactions to last jedi getting the most attention,
-the circular negative discourse around last jedi,
-the notion that it didn't tease audiences with a major cliffhanger to get excited for the final chapter,
-the fact that another star war movie came out and flopped 6 months later,
-on top of the fact that risewalker just wasn't well-accepted by either end of the spectrum (critics or fans)

but if you wanna take that route, and want to continue suggesting that the drop-off from forwakens to last jedi suggests failure, then perhaps that's due to forwakens not getting people excited enough for a follow-up?

but we know that's not true, and the drop-off was simply in line with the other two trilogies

and I'm sticking to this KNIVES OUT thread because this is your home, shan.  you're not going anywhere!
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LAST

JEDI

THREAD

NOOJ

(also freeman nooj and I already had this ProZD conversation a long time ago where we both know full well from the outset they are not at all the same so do try and keep up)
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I don't remember any such conversation

you're on your own on this one, shan
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No, *you're* on your own here Nooj!

(leaves thread)
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(05-08-2021, 02:09 AM)freeman Wrote: Why are you working at 11pm on a Saturday?

(05-08-2021, 02:09 AM)cd underbelly Wrote:
(05-08-2021, 01:22 AM)freeman Wrote: Such an awesome, epic moment. The haters should be ashamed of themselves.

That was probably the only real, good, enjoyablly epic moment of TLJ. Should've been Admiral Ackbar doing it instead of Jurassic Purple Hair, though.

"Godspeed Rebels! It's a TRAAAAAAAAA-!"

No. It was not probably the only real, good, enjoyable epic moment of TLJ.

This is why you're below SimBob!

Alright, for the sake of argument, what other enjoyably epic moment in the movie even is there? The battle at the start? Meh, the casino escape? Pfft. Ghost Yoda summoning lightning? Uh, no. Poe's mutiny? Ahahahaha! Lightsaber fight against crimson guards? Again, meh. The... "battle", of Crait? No sir.

The movie epically subverted expectations, and not in a good way.
Git' in under mah belly!
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Luke staring down the entire First Order was epic as fuck.

You can't just say "meh" like an idiot, like that actually makes it not epic.
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To hell with all the subverting expectations nonsense. I don't think I've used that argument more than once. The entire ending of The Last Jedi had some of the most unique stuff Star Wars has ever done. That whole scene on Crait seemed very very much like something I could see an older, pissier (but still OT Luke) doing.

Rian tried to do Star Wars fans a few favors by making some kind of sense of Abrams' nonsense. Like getting rid of nothings like Snoke and making some kind of sense out of Ben's backstory..

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(05-09-2021, 05:34 AM)freeman Wrote: Luke staring down the entire First Order was epic as fuck.

You can't just say "meh" like an idiot, like that actually makes it not epic.

Meh. Too bad Luke wasn't actually there in person and didn't bring all them walkers down with the Force. Too bad he didn't deflect all that cannon fire back at the walkers. Too bad he didn't lay the smackdown on his nephew and make him yield. Nope, just a Force hologram from lightyears away for a diversion. Oh what could have been. MEH!

*scratches butt*
Git' in under mah belly!
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Too bad he didn't do something so insanely, over the top, powerful that it would've been continuity breaking in much the same way what Holdo did was?* Yeah....too bad about that. Let's make him look extra bad if he could've just wadded Starkiller Base up like a ball of tin foil this whole time. I dunno...call me crazy. I just like the immense power of the Force to be a tiny bit more subtle than that.

Once a character can do practically anything...then nothing they do really matters. See also: Neo.



*I actually like what Holdo did. Especially on a visual level. But I do see the problems with it..

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Nah, we should've gotten a grand old battle mage kicking butt and saving the day. Instead we got a bitter old coward projecting himself across the galaxy from far far away, only pretending to be a badass battle mage in order to distract his emo edglelord nephew. Laaaaame!

Mark Hamill himself even shits on the way Luke was written and portrayed. He got in shape and lost all that weight to do fuck all. No wonder ghost Luke was looking pudgy in TRoS. And his uh, hair grew longer too somehow, but that's a different conversation.

But Knives Out, I like it.
Git' in under mah belly!
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My problem with that entire line of thinking is...are we calling Obi-Wan a coward too? He hid himself for much longer. Why isn't anyone retroactively shitting on him? Luke hid for maybe years. Kenobi hid for a couple decades. Is he a piece of shit? He went out in a less epic way than Luke did. Yoda too. Again...if he'd actually stomped the First Order for REAL right there...I think he actually comes off worse because he could've been doing this the whole time. He could've saved Han. And that system they destroyed. This is where I circle back around to The Force Awakens actually being the real problem film.

All three of the sequel films drop the ball hard on something at some point. The Last Jedi is the only one that tries to make a good faith attempt at mopping any of it up..

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The praetorian guard fight wasn't "epic" looking enough? Come on, there's complaints, and there's nitpicks, and then there's just horseshit.
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(05-09-2021, 11:44 AM)fraid uh noman Wrote: *I actually like what Holdo did. Especially on a visual level. But I do see the problems with it..

there are no problems with the holdo maneuver
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(05-09-2021, 01:55 PM)schwartz Wrote: The praetorian guard fight wasn't "epic" looking enough?  Come on, there's complaints, and there's nitpicks, and then there's just horseshit.

Best dance scene in cinema since Step Up 2 The Streets.
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I don't have a single problem with that fight scene but that's just me..

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The force projection thing is something I never fully wrapped my head around, I guess. Wouldn't the entire point of force projecting be that he's not in any actual danger? So, if it's actually going to kill him, what's the benefit of force projecting, over just actually going there? In world or narratively? It seems like if death is the result either way, force projecting is far and away the less cool option.

It's not some travel time bullshit, because Rey makes the trip in what seems like a few hours, just like everyone always in the movie.
Brigadier Cousins on PSN
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in terms of the in-world justification, the implication was that Luke was stuck on that planet and couldn't physically make it there once Rey left with the Falcon.  Force projection was basically his only method of helping at that point.

(earlier in the movie, we see that his X-wing has been submerged in water for a while... and Luke uses a piece of it as a door to his hut.  He has, after all, decided to exile himself.  It wouldn't be much of a self-exile if he gave himself an easy way to back out of it at any moment.)  

(Risewalker contradicts this by having Luke raise it from the water to let Rey immediately use it to fly to Exegol without any fuss)

in terms of the narrative, it builds upon the Force-chats that Rey and Kylo had been engaging in for a chunk of the movie. Force Projection doesn't come from nowhere. It's a beefed up version of something we've been seeing happen for a while.

in terms of the benefits of projecting himself, it's the fact that if the ruse works, it looks like the guy wasn't at all harmed by a barrage of fire from a bunch of walkers, which pisses Kylo off and causes him to fixate on THE LEGEND OF LUKE SKYWALKER (instead of the Rebels)

a Luke that actually went out there in person would (I assume) not have survived that... and his attempt to give the Rebels more time to escape could've been not as effective

Projection also allowed Luke to make himself look more "out of bed and full of beans", similar to the way he looked the night Kylo destroyed the temple, which only serves to trigger Kylo more
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(05-09-2021, 06:17 PM)Nooj Wrote: in terms of the narrative, the implication was that Luke was stuck on that planet and couldn't physically make it there once Rey left with the Falcon 

(earlier in the movie, we see that his X-wing has been submerged in water for a while... and Luke uses a piece of it as a door to his hut.   Risewalker contradicts this by having Luke raise it from the water to let Rey immediately use it to fly to Exegol)

in terms of the benefits of projecting himself, it's the fact that if the ruse works, it looks like the guy wasn't at all harmed by a barrage of fire from a bunch of walkers, which pisses Kylo off and causes him to fixate on Luke (instead of the Rebels)

a Luke that actually went out there in person would (I assume) not have survived that... and his attempt to give the Rebels more time to escape could've been not as effective

Projection also allowed Luke to make himself look more "out of bed and full of beans", similar to the way he looked the night Kylo destroyed the temple

All of this. 

I'm glad you put what I was thinking into words better than I probably could have.

The Force projection allowing him a degree of control over how the confrontation appears to others just observing is 100% the point. He's giving them THE LEGENDARY LUKE SKYWALKER. It leaves nothing to chance while still being a noble sacrifice.

I guess I dig this whole thing because I've never like the idea of someone so powerful with the Force that he could've literally waved his hand and crushed all the First Order transports into a ball and flung it into the nearest star. That's too much of a deus ex machina.

Crait is actually kind of brilliant because it allows some weird visual things that make you wonder what you're really seeing. Like...when they fire on Luke and it results in geysers of red it gives the impression that maybe they did just vaporize him. Like the puff of red when Maul is cut in half. And when Kylo finally charges Luke and swings through him and skids to a stop leaving those red trails....is...that Luke's blood that he slid through? Are we really about to see Luke's bisected body fall in half or is that just the Craitsoil again? I thought that was kind of clever given the nature of the confrontation..

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Now we’re I’m unironically misunderstanding the force projection scene and having issues with the holdo scene again...

SHAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!!!

I’ll chase you to THE ENDS OF THE EARTH
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All the shit the Holdo scene gets never ceases to amaze me. What's the big deal again? If she could do that, then why didn't they do that to the Death Star? Because....they didn't know that would destroy it even if in theory it'd definitely do much damage and they can't waste their pilots and their chances on kamikaze stunts. Holdo was essentially doing what Luke does shortly afterwards. Making a big show to draw attention away from something else. Maybe they'll make hyperspace/lightspeed missiles in future movies. Who cares? It was a cool scene..

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You got your Star Wars in my Knives Out thread!

A Hawaiian shirt is like a cash gift - always appropriate
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blame shan!
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I get so mixed up as to what thread I'm actually in sometimes. Apologies..

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fraid did nothing wrong

it’s all shan!
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But I did perpetuate it. Taking my part of the blame. It's true that too often I don't pay enough attention to the thread title..

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NO!!!
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From my point of view Knives Out is evil! Don't underestimate my staying powerrrrr.
Git' in under mah belly!
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