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The FRAME WORK Podcast thread
#36
On the "fates of nations" thing being a possible distinguishing feature between Adventure films and Historical Epics, it's notable that in Raiders (and Star Wars) the stakes really are presented as global(/galactic).

Meanwhile, I think the comfort zone thing is pretty key, which is why James Bond movies don't have an "adventure" vibe - Bond's whole dealio is that he can move with relative ease anywhere on the planet (or above it) - even when he's captured it never feels like he's out of his depth. It's also why Jumanji may be the ultimate in adventure, since not only are city slickers transported to jungles, but into bodies which aren't their own.
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#37
(01-14-2021, 03:35 PM)schwartz Wrote: Just a passing mention, I'm afraid.  That's one that I've never actually seen start to finish.

Now share your personal story of discovering Armand Assante or GTFO.

 I did watch the Odyssey miniseries Assante was in, but since I had forgotten about till your last show means it wasn't that memorable IMO.
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#38
And now, to prep ourselves for the Fincher series, a swooning remembrance of Alien and Aliens.
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#39
having recently introduced ALIEN and ALIENS to someone (and continuing to appreciate how great they are to the point that I splurged on Rinzler's making-of books for both)... I should finally actually watch ALIEN 3

which version of the film are you going to watch for the podcast?
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#40
Everyone watched different versions, so there’s some talk about the differences, such as dog vs ox.

My opinion is that in the end, theatrical is the way to go. The Assembly Cut is interesting, but more so with the context of the original version. And it’s a half hour longer, which mostly just makes it feel like a trudge.
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#41
The theatrical is over fastest, so I'd recommend that. Not because it is a terrible movie, but it is so deliberately bleak and oppressive that you've definitely gotten the point 90 minutes in.
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#42
I finally watched Once Upon A Time in Hollywood, and of course within half an hour of finishing the fillum I'd loaded up the QTQ/FW episode on it.

Like Schwartz, one of the first words that came to mind as I watched the Margot Robbie/Sharon Tate scenes was "Fanfic", and of course the emblazoning of that word across the film only gets more emblazony in the last 20 minutes.

Like John, "I'm always aware of the artifice." On the one hand I was initially surprised by how "inauthentic" That 60s Feel was, given how hyped it had been in certain circles, but on the other hand it didn't hurt the film for me. If anything it became part of the fun to have that slight remove - almost like it felt as if Tarantino was sitting alongside me for the ride.

It was particularly interesting to hear John immediately assume that if Tom Cruise had been in it he would've been Cliff Booth. DiCaprio's performance in the intense/comedic/insecure Rick Dalton role immediately reminded me of several intense/comedic/insecure Tom Cruise performances, whereas I can't think of a single Tom Cruise performance where he's even 1/10th as laid back as Pitt's Cliff Booth is. (Part of me wishes we got to see the Lestat/Louis reunion, but most of me loved Leo too much in this to wish it had been any different.)

Career Best Pitt Performance: Babel
Career Best DiCaprio: Maybe this, maybe Wolf of Wall Street (another performance of his that brought to mind Tom Cruise ... coincidence?)
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#43
(01-20-2021, 08:22 PM)Bucho Wrote: It was interesting to hear John immediately assume that if Tom Cruise had been in it he would've been Cliff Booth. DiCaprio's performance in the intense/comedic/insecure Rick Dalton role immediately reminded me of several intense/comedic/insecure Tom Cruise performances, whereas I can't think of a single Tom Cruise performance where he's even 1/10th as laid back as Pitt's Cliff Booth is.

that's a great point that really aligns with my general perception of Cruise as a performer

it was also a topic of discussion I was having on facebook with Andre Dellamorte about MI2 where he said:

Quote:Watching M:I:II, though the haircut is a definite tangible bad (for the character), I think the big problem is that Tom Cruise is an athlete who is all about showing the work, and John Woo is a choreographer who is all about making the work look effortless.

Cameron Crowe talked about how Cruise said to him “I want you to write me my Lloyd Dobler.” I think here he wanted to be Chow Yun-Fat. The problem is that Cruise is built for showing the work so he doesn’t glide as naturally - he’s not a dancer.

on the flipside... I think I have a harder time buying Pitt as 'intense' characters
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#44
Solid observation from Andre D for sure. That talent for physically portraying desperation is a key part of why Cruise is so easy to root for.


(01-20-2021, 08:31 PM)Nooj Wrote: on the flipside... I think I have a harder time buying Pitt as 'intense' characters

I'm mostly with you on that one, although, like I say, Babel is the most convincing he's ever been for me and he gets pretty dang intense in that one. I also just watched Ad Astra after hearing the chaps chat a little about it during the Once Upon A Time In Hollywood ep, and I fully buy his intense moments in that too (and as a bonus I've now completed the astronaut trilogy made by the three main guys from Ocean's Eleven so I'm really racking up the points today.)
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#45
I haven't seen BABEL in forever and can barely remember Pitt's role in it. All I remember is Rinko

I thought Pitt was more in BROODING mode in AD ASTRA as opposed to the kind of 'intense' we're talking about
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#46
Having spent some time on the notion, I do think Cruise could have been Rick Dalton, especially to Pitt’s Cliff Booth. I don’t know if he’d accept the less ‘badass’ of the roles at this stage in his career, especially next to another megastar.
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#47
The thing that maybe wouldn't have worked so well with Cruise is that he doesn't have a 50s/60s movie star face, whereas Leo does have a more "classic" movie star face.

And part of why it works so well that Rick Dalton has moved into more villainous roles in his more recent years is that, as QT seemed to have realized when he cast Leo in Django, post-babyface Leoface is well-suited to villainy. Even as a youngster he always had those "mean" eyes, but as he's gotten more weathered he's really grown into them. I'm sure I'm not the first to note that he has kind of a Jack Nicholson thing going on now.

(01-20-2021, 09:19 PM)Nooj Wrote: I haven't seen BABEL in forever and can barely remember Pitt's role in it.  All I remember is Rinko

I thought Pitt was more in BROODING mode in AD ASTRA as opposed to the kind of 'intense' we're talking about

True, I guess I'm still processing that he was far more convincing as a serious astronaut type guy than I expected he would be.
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#48
That stuff about MI:2 is really fascinating. It does seem like Cruise is perfectly suited to want to be Woo protagonist, but really poorly suited to actually do it. And it's precisely because Cruise wants to put the effort on screen, and Woo wants to disguise it.
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#49
A splendid jaunt through your takes on Alien and Aliens - I hit play while was out for a trot around the hood, then finished it later while I tidied up my garage. I somehow didn't recognize that the Alien/Aliens superspecialepisode was a prologue to your Fincher thing until you pointed out the bleedingly obvious connection, I just figured it was another fun thing to talk about before you guys launched on your next director. I am that clueless sometimes.

I definitely haven't outgrown Aliens, but I admit I do find myself zoning out in some of the third act action scenes these days. Part of it is aural - there are maybe 10-15% too many Newt screams for my old man ears, and the sound design of the space marines assault rifles is kind of ... I don't know ... mushy ... so the noise eventually becomes numbing in a way it never does for me with "real" war movies, where the gun sounds have a crack to them (or Star Wars, where they have that cable whip sound). The other part is that Cameron sometimes leans a little hard into close ups during the action scenes, so, while I love the action scenes in general, the fight geography sometimes isn't quite as masterfully handled as it was by the time he made T2. I'm not saying T2 is his best film per se, but the action storytelling in that one is the best he's ever done for me. For me the loader fight in particular could've done with a couple more kung-fu movie style longer shots cut in there to really gel the thing together and take it from a 9/10 fight to a 10/10 one. Those nits picked, the rest of it is aces. Every performance rules, the pacing (aside from the short-lived above-mentioned zone outs) is cracking, blah, blah, blah ... basically - every big-up you guys gave it, I'm right there with you.

Meanwhile, Alien is one of my three favourite fillums of all time along with Jaws and Raiders.
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#50
As well as the effects hold up generally to a modern eye, I don't think the puppetry and so forth could stand up to wider, longer shots of them in kinetic action.
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#51
I'm sure that was the reason, and I'm sure he even probably tried shooting some longer (to be clear l'm using "long" as a synonym for "wide" here, commenting on the framing rather than the pace of the action editing, which is perfect) shots and maybe they just looked too goofy, I just thought a couple of quick cuts of wide shots showing the loader and the Queen locked up like a couple of Greco Roman grapplers (i.e., shots not involving wildly dynamic motion) would've worked a treat.
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#52
Paul Gleason is another one of the great weasels of the 80s. I'm not the biggest fan of The Breakfast Club, but Gleason is good playing a man who isn't as important as he thinks he is. One of the many reason Die Hard is a classic is because features two of the 80s great weasels: Gleason and Atherton
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#53
I'm pretty disappointed that we stumbled into the weasel conversation without having a shortlist at ready. At the least, without even leaving the Cameron ouevre we could have shouted out Paxton in TRUE LIES and Zane in TITANIC.
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#54
New Fincher series, starting with Alien3.

Cross posted with a Fincher-specific thread.
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#55
Enjoyed the chat about Alien 3, including Bill's takes. Didn't enjoy what Alien 3 brought to the ongoing Alien story. Holy crap was I borrrrrrrred trying to get through this turd! It might not have helped that I watched it within a couple of days of rewatching the first two - not because I was bummed about Newt and/or Hicks*, just because the quality is about 17 steps down. On the plus side it made me appreciate both the previous Alien films and the subsequent Fincher films even more.

There's definitely a way to do bummer stories/environments/themes and have them be compelling, but this ain't it.


* Honestly, by the end of Aliens I'm so tired of listening to that kid's screams I didn't miss her one iota in 3, and Hicks is good, but he's about the 4th most interesting/entertaining space marine in Aliens.
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#56
(01-28-2021, 08:59 PM)Bucho Wrote: Enjoyed the chat about Alien 3, including Bill's takes. Didn't enjoy what Alien 3 brought to the ongoing Alien story. Holy crap was I borrrrrrrred trying to get through this turd! It might not have helped that I watched it within a couple of days of rewatching the first two - not because I was bummed about Newt and/or Hicks*, just because the quality is about 17 steps down. On the plus side it made me appreciate both the previous Alien films and the subsequent Fincher films even more.

Yeah, I came into it ready to talk about how the hate for A3 is overblown by people who just can't handle the haymakers of harshness that the movie dishes out to their sentimental faves.  But upon revisit, I was more struck by how yeah, this is just nowhere near the level of craftmanship that the first two operated at.


Quote: There's definitely a way to do bummer stories/environments/themes and have them be compelling, but this ain't it.

And the good part is, SEVEN is it, and we get to do that next.
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#57
That was a fun episode about one seriously depressing movie. One of Bill's points even has this movie make Aliens depressing as well. Lives would have been saved if Ripley didn't go after Newt.

  I do respect this movie for being its own thing, but it is too bleak for my tastes. 

  On a lighter note here is a good example of self referential humor. During the credits of the A Team, Dirk Benedict looks like he is about to ask a guy in a  Cylon costume a question, then changes his mind.
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#58
I’ve gone on quite a journey with Alien3, from being super disappointed that it want fun and kewl like that first two, to championing it because of the obvious, massive balls it has, to kind of respecting what it’s trying to do but mostly just finding it a real chore to watch. I think, at this point, I’m probably done with it, until I erroneously decide I need to rewatch all the Alien films in ten years or so.
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#59
This week on the program, a look at the enormous influence Dungeons & Dragons has had on video games, and nerd culture in general.

A bit different from our usual stuff, but I think one of the better ones we've done, to be honest. I, at least, was fascinated.
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#60
My favourite stats site has a quote at the top saying "Statistical thinking will one day be as necessary for efficient citizenship as the ability to read and write." It's attributed to H.G. Wells (although word on the street is he might not have said it) and I thought of it when Schwartz was talking about how the world would probably be a much better place if the genpop understood probability. 

I don't know a whole lot about DnD and I've been mostly retired from video games for 15 years but I still dug the ep.
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#61
It was cool to hear Schwartz reference the Dragonlance novels. From 11 to 14 I  read and re-read the first two trilogies Dragonlance all the time.  At that young age it felt mature I was reading something where there was sex and people said bastard. Thinking about now, those books had well written characters. In the first trilogy Tanis struggled with being a leader because he didn't know why anyone would follow someone who was distrusted by both humans and elves. In the second trilogy Cameron has a good arc where he learns to become his own man and not just be support for his twin brother.  Speaking of his brother, while Raistlin was never likable, I could always see where he was coming from. How the Hell I remember stuff from books I read 30 years ago is beyond me.
I've got good news and I've got bad news. The bad news is I've lost my way. The good news is I'm way ahead of schedule!
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#62
Ha! Your memory is better than mine Chaz. I read the Dragonlance trilogy around that age too, having been turned on to fantasy by The Hobbit and LOTR, but, unfortunately, the Dragonlance books turned me back off it again. All I really remember was being frustrated by them not being of the same quality as Tolkein's work (sure it's probably not fair to compare, but I was 12 and uninterested in fairness).
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#63
There was some fun bits in the Dragonlance books. The Majere twins, Steel Brightblade and Kitiara were some good characters, but even at 11 years old I remember thinking "man they just need to kill off this Riverwind bore and his bland-o girlfriend already". Then they did. Then they brought him back one page later, and I distinctly recall another thought that "real books wouldn't pull this shit."
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#64
Steel Brightblade did have an epic death scene. Maybe its the PBR talking, but I have the urge to see if I can find my art of Dragonlance book.
I've got good news and I've got bad news. The bad news is I've lost my way. The good news is I'm way ahead of schedule!
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#65
And now it is time for Se7en.
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#66
Two things. OK, three:

First, I really enjoy the podcasts and conversations. It's tougher to make a podcast that's just a couple of guys talking about something enjoyable, more than most people might think, and you two do it.

Second, please identify who is who at the beginning of each 'cast. I have NO idea which voice belongs to which 'caster.

Third, one of you hasn't watched the trailer for THE BATMAN yet??! CANCELLED!!!!
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

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#67
Oh damn, did we miss introducing ourselves this time? I'm John, and Schwartz is Al (Schwartz). If we didn't even say that in the beginning, know that Schwartz is the guy who hasn't watched The Batman trailer.
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#68
You guys don't sound like each other but I really have no idea which voice belongs to you and which belongs to schwartz!

I'm also dumb sometimes, so take that FWIW.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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#69
John's voice is the one with clearer audio in the episode
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#70
John is the one who talks in clear, complete sentences. I'm the other guy.
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